Will the MOAB Lead to TEOTWAWKI? Survivalists Think So.

The pace at which this is accelerating is mind-boggling. A year ago, this would have been tinfoil. Now that there seems to be no lengths to which our elected and in some cases unelected officials won't go, it's sadly prudent to start thinking about protecting your family in case any or all of this comes to pass.

If you haven't already, check out tickerforum.org. Karl Denninger simply and eloquently tells it like it is. www.tickerforum.org

These people have a nihilistic, cynical, pessimistic worldview that says a lot more about their mental defects than the economy. I always give these kind of people a wide berth. They are utterly blind to the creative power of the human spirit.

So,.... someone took a look at a history book and came up with this list. This is nothing new. why is tis "survivalist".

It (survivalism) actually says a lot about the human spirit - to protect yourself and the people you care most about against what will probably by a very harsh future.

People, and most Americans, are habitually sociable and prefer to live in larger groups. This explains the trend towards urbanization. And people living in groups tend to become habituated to order and reciprocation, which are the ONLY ways to produce excess wealth.

Frankly, mass co-ordination and organization are far more essential to a going-forward economy than a stable currency. If you are on civilized terms with your neighbor, you can trade favors and goods WITHOUT money.

Read the Worldchangers essay "Hidden Vitality of Slums".

Of course there are limits and exceptions, but if you dropout and go off grid, you're far more likely to starve than the urban dweller you despise. Remember the hippies? How many communes do you see around these days that aren't just religous wackos?

@rob

"How many communes do you see around these days that aren't just religous wackos?"

Approximately 1600, and those are just the ones that listed themselves here (in the US):

http://directory.ic.org/iclist/geo.php

About 50% of those are over 5 years old, 25% over 10 and 10% over 20 (reaching back into those hippie years). Hippies were the penultimate in community though, so you're pretty far off base calling them in the same circle as survivalists.

Hippies are NOT survivalist, I'm a hippie, I've met survivalists, we share COMPLETELY different mindsets. They are all guns, family and God and we are all peace, earth and community. QUITE different, let me assure you.

The two could work together though, it wouldn't be a horrible setup and might work.

Cyber:

No disrespect to you. It's a perfectly acceptable life choice if its a choice. I know there's a total difference between communes and survivalists. I'm just saying it's not the utopian phenomenon it was in the early 1970s (and I'm think you'd agree).

Survivalists, with their culture of victimhood, see themselves as COMPELLED to go back to the land. I am trying, ineptly, to point out that that perception is a delusion.

Rob, that argument that we all need to get back to the land might not be as far fetched as one might think at first glance; as we look at corporate food production, elongated supply chains, and increasing populations, a need for more local food NOW is driving the thinking for folks like Bill McKibbens and Thomas Friedman. While they (and I) would eschew the "hunker in the bunker" mentality, I think all three of us would agree we need to put more value in food vs. money; the commercial word keeps popping up next to collapse throughout that list and I suspect they are closer to right than many of us think. Switching to barter and local currency insulates against global failure, while preserving market functions to maintain fair pricing and distribution of wealth. Our current economy is failing badly on all three of these counts already...

survivalists project their own paranoid, distrustful, and mean spiritedness onto everyone else and even want the worst to happen just so they can feel smart. barring a nuclear armageddon or a rain of asteroids from space, none of what they are predicting will happen anytime soon.

that being said, shit is going to hit the fan and our life of luxury wont be so luxurious for awhile.

I'm sorry to be so flamey on this. I've just seen it first hand, and I totally respect back to the land people and people from rural areas I'm just worried about people who move there thinking they're escaping their devils but they're taking them with them.

And there are plenty of city people who are isolated, paranoid, and delusional.

Sorry for the ichor.

I was going to say what Ron said, but he said it first. Yes, it's the end of the world as we know it. Every day is. But we should be thinking more along the lines of the Depression rather than the The Brutal World Of Warhammer 40,000 that the survivalists so desperately want to live in.

Except for times of plague and the great European migration to the Americas, human populations seem to always tend towards more order. Not prosperity or happiness, or even progress, but order nonetheless. Even in the chaotic urbanization of the third world, people tend to rationalize themselves into groupings. I don't think this is an uninterrupted trend, but it's not really reversible.

This is why I'm optimistic, and this is why I think survivalists are on a losing stick. They underestimate the ability of humans to adapt to changing conditions. Our brain is just too plastic, our hands too quick.

It's the same with expectations and morale. When I was growing up in the burbs, I always thought I'd have a different kind of life than I do, but I'm not disappointed. I don't have a Corvette, but I have the internet. One has supplanted the other very well.

I think the pessimists and survivialists are having a hard time adjusting to the idea that the life of their childhood dreams is not what life has planned for them. Survivalists seem to me to be sentimentalists, disappointed nonetheless, because they have the idea that human imagination and civilizing processes wont in the long term work things out.

I'm betting they will.

"The Survivalists" are a pretty diverse bunch. If you'd like to see someone of a slightly different stripe, Rob, check out Casaubon's Book, the blog of Sharon Astyk, who is homesteading with her family in relative suburbia in upstate New York. She is very reasonable and level-headed and has been spot-on so far, and her suggestions about what to do to ease the adjustment pangs are really sensible and would improve our lives even if TSneverHTF... I only wish I could follow them!

It seems generally agreed on, now, that there is in fact a big change coming and it's going to be pretty unpleasant for most of us. It's the Depression, it's Peak Oil, it's Global Warming, it's the Food Crisis, it's the Credit Crunch, all at once. It puts me in mind of The Superstruct Game, which imagines a scenario in which several independently-manageable threats together add up to disaster for human survival.

I agree with Rob that survivalism, off-grid communes and other isolationist attitudes are far from what is needed to handle what is happening right now. The Human Race is as creative and flexible as it is passioned about confort and easy living (yes we can one day be green and extremely confortable, even if it is sort of subjective).

But I think that much of the knowledge and experience they have with simple everyday tasks and habits (not ideology) are increasingly becoming very appealing for many people, as they discover skills that simply should not have been lost.

Though one might say that the lifestyle plunge they took is fit for a distant reality, a closer look at the details may reveal that maybe they are onto something really important.

I am definitely in favor of home-made, hand-made, and home-grown stuff. There's certainly no end of satisfaction for your toil. What seems ironic is that a lot of these home-made gurus from the 1970s (designers, artists, and especially vintners/ artisanal food) are now getting rich off their adventure. In fact, the fact that they're making money and gaining prestige has the effect of INTEGRATING THEM MORE into society!

One point people here are not facing: difference between the Great Depression in the 1930s and what would happen in 2009 is this: back then, people were willing to wait in lines all day for a meal. Society was more trusting of the government, the populace was more compliant (and open to propaganda), and there was nowhere near the violence that is found in today's America.

What will happen here if the food runs out? When the majority of the people depend on an inept govt. to provide enough to eat, can we trust the govt to respond? We saw what happened with Katrina. What happens when the economy shuts down, businesses close, jobs are lost, and another great depression is at hand? When crops rot in the fields because farmers don't have the funds to harvest?

It has happened before.

Today's society will react much differently, I'm afraid. There will be riots. Urban areas will soon run out of food, and people will not sit on their hands and watch their children go hungry.

Will this happen? Maybe not. But there is nothing wrong in preparing a food supply of your own where you are not at the mercy of an inept govt.

I write www.SHTFblog.com (sh*t hits the fan). Survivalism doesn't have to be just for the gun loving paranoid folks. It can be for liberal leaning, every day folks that recognize how fragile our system is, are interested in backyard organic gardening, etc.

It can also be fun, you know, preparing, and dreaming of invading hordes of zombies - lol.

- Ranger Man

"survivalists" have a very wide spectrum of personality styles not unlike the forward-thinking folks who anchor the green/environmenmtalist movement.

I believe that many such "preppers" have the same attributes as the lovers of nature and are very compatable with the peaceful and idealistic world that is sought for the future.

The difference is that survivalists/preppers are ready for the worst case scenario as well as the best case vis a vis stored food, defense, seclusion, organization, and exteme faith in the Lord.

I can't speak for all preppers, but I do know that I would much rather blend with the Earth-loving, forward-thinking, organic-gardening, spiritually-oriented crowd ---and their intellectual and even-handed approach to solving the world's energy and ecological man-made problems--- than the militia-types who make all survivalists look no better than a rogue gang of half-crazed and irreverant bikers.

However, if TEOTWAWKI does happen in its worst form, those of us who desire to live and re-fashion what is left of this world will have to effectively deal with the "rogue biker" element; or we will never have peace. THAT IS WHY I CHOOSE TO ADD ARMAMENTS AND WEAPONS TRAINING TO MY PREPATORY REGEMIN. (and I hope I'll never need to use them.)

Read John Michael Greer's blog at :

www.thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com for some awesome perspectives on the future.

AND THIS IS COMING FROM A GUY WITH 6 ASSAULT RIFLES AND 20,000 ROUNDS OF AMMO STORED-UP.

I'm a sometimes poster on Survivalblog. I'm a Conservative (not NeoCon, the NeoCons betrayed conservative values). I'm a Conservationist. I'm a Scientist. I'm a Survivalist. I want healthy forests filled with wild game. Clean water. Rational transportation laws (and bike lanes on the freeways). Local food. A sane economy (based on commodities rather than FIAT currency and inflationary banking). I want a govt that stays out of my way and keeps my taxes low. I like rural farms and green zones and parks.

And I'm still a Conservative. One who believes in Conservation and civil liberties. There are a lot of people out there just like me who aren't represented by the two party system and have nowhere to go as long as it stays with these two inept and entrenched belief systems. The world has changed, and the USA has had other political parties before. The Whigs and Tories come to mind. The NeoCons are not Republicans, so that's another change. And the Democrats haven't been the same since the Civil War. New parties replace old ones, with slightly different political stances.

The similarities between the Greens and the Survivalists are more significant than the differences. The Greens tend to focus on their differences, which is why they're often divided and usually are dismissed as a political power. If the Greens can agree to disagree and focus on their common threads and work within realistic goals (no more pothead fantasy solutions, thanks very much), and turn COEXIST into your primary platform plank... the Greens could make agreements with the Conservatives, the Survivalists, and the Green Evangelical Christians and become a sizable political party. One to replace the disreputable Republican and Democrat parties. This would benefit everyone, but especially the common aims of all four political groups.

If the Greens can agree to COEXIST, they can organize and get things done. But the agreement has to occur at the personal level. Old grudges have to be set aside for the bigger picture. Otherwise you end up huddling in the cold and dark in your bunker, whether its made of sod with peace symbols on the walls or concrete with concertina wire around the perimeter. Those with friends are safer than those alone. And really, that's the future you'd rather live in, isn't it?

I'll target this comment to those who think "survivalists" are the "tin foil hat" crowd, or are all about God and guns.

Survivalism isn't a monolithic community. There isn't an archetypical Survivalist. We come from all backgrounds, social strata, economic levels, ethnic and racial groupings. I know some who don't own firearms, and others who are atheists.

Survivalism is about preparing to take care of yourself, your family, and your community when the government can't or won't. If the government can't or won't that fairly well indicates that society has broken down at some level. Once that happens, you are on your own. You can't count of the police or fire department.

That is what Survivalists prepare for. The need to function after all of what most of us take for granted comes to a screeching stop.

Yes, there are extremes within the Survivalist community. People running around in face paint waving guns are rare. Just like within the Green movement people who have participated in ELF firebomb attacks on new construction or auto dealers are rare.

We can stand here and point at the extremes in each group, or we can sit down and work together. I think you'll find most Survivalists are just as green as you.

I'm a regular reader of survivalblog.com and have similar issues with it to many of the posters above. I think that Rawles means well, but he is really paranoid and has not spent enough time dealing with the hordes that he talks about.
I was going to post Sharon Astyk's blog, but someone beat me to it. Then I was going to post John Michael Greer's blog, but again, someone beat me to it. I am however going to point you folks to Dmitry Orlov (http://www.cluborlov.com) for someone who has seen what social collapse looks like, and has a great sense of humour about it. If you are interested in a more defeatist point of view, check out James Kuntsler (http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/).
Kuntsler is a much better writer than Rawles, but is just as negative. Orlov on the other hand is a joy to read, and I would happily go through every single article on his site even if I didn't believe a single word, just because his prose is so much fun.

I sometimes get offended by people who demean survivalist or preppers as gun nuts etc. The second amendment is just as sacred as the first. If someone is offended by private gun ownership maybe China or Cuba is more to there liking .I may not be a sandals with socks prius driving vegan however I harbor no resentment to them . They can likewise respect someone who would rather not see there wife or daughter being raped, and would do something to prevent it. The second amendment was not for squirrel hunters but it was to prevent a dictator from gaining power.Barack Huessin Obamma has a problem with bullets penetrating armor.However he has not defined armor and is keeping a clause open to rescind the second amendment. I think things may start to suck regardless of our economy so be prepared for it.

All you anti survivalists won't be laughing at us when the shit hits the fan and we are the ones with electricity, hot and cold running water, food, guns, ammo, and the means and skills to maintain all of them. I have to wind turbines, and enough spare parts for them to rebuild them 50 times over if required, I have a generator which can power my whole house with all lights and appliances switched on, and it runs on guess what......wood.......yes......burning wood.......and I can rebuild it several times before I ran out of parts, and I can make parts too. I have a bore, two 5000 gallon tanks, a dam.......all the trees and wood in the world around me. I have armoured glass windows that can take a shot gun blast at point blank range, my walls are double bluestone, and my roof is fortified. I have fruit trees, vegie gardens, chickens, some of the best fishing in the world not far away. I have supplies of electrical wireing, fuses, low energy bulbs, fluros. I have lead acid batteries that are dry, vacum sealed, with the acid stored seperate, I can fill them in 50 years time and charge them and will be brand new......I have pallet loads of them. I have big bore air rifles that can take big game, and I have moulds for the ammo and enough scrap lead to last 100 life times. I have a still and can make ethanol from a variety of things that grow around here. I have fully working wood gas producers that I can put on my vehicals and run them by burning wood. I have 37 solar panels. I have a stock of ultra long life food that can keep for 30 years, enough to live exclusively off for myself, wife, kids, for 2 years. As well as that, a stock of tinned, packet, dehydrated, etc food. Even if I didn't hunt, fish, or grow anything, my family could gain weight over the next 5 years while all of you starve. I have nightvision equipment, laser sighting, I can blow someones head off from a kilometer away on a pitch black night if I have too. I have wood stove that boosts my hot water from my solar system and wind power, I have wood heating. I need nothing at all from society, when it collapses, I will have hot and cold running water, power, transport, food, weapons, for however long it takes for a new society to evolve from the mess, and for all those that are unable to adjust to a new way of living to have died off.

Tell me after the energy crisis hits, and the resource wars break out, and food is scarce, and people are rioting, looting, killing and committing suicide that I'm wrong, just don't bring your starving self around my place looking for a hand out, unless you have something to trade, you life will not be worth anything........being a great accountant, and not being able to do anything real will mean.........your worth more dead then alive. You want to survive in the new and coming world, learn to produce something people will need, something real, with your hands. The reason so many will perish when the shit hits the fan is that so many live in a world where useless skills are highly paid and highly regarded, but produce nothing that anybody needs to actually live, they live of the toil of others, it will be the others that survive.