Treehugger Buys an SUV - Hell freezes, Arctic Melts?

I think this is a classic case of having a hard time sacrificing for the environment. I feel for you, and totally understand your need for room, I have a family of 5.

However, we are going to pay now: by giving up some convenience and luxury or pay later: with global climate instability.

I think the example that this tree hugger put forward, of having a hard time making this sacrifice, since he had many reasons and the ability not to do so, is symptomatic of how hard it will be to change behavior.

It reminds me of going to a lecture on voluntary simplicity with a friend back in the '90s. We were eating it up, and upon running into her a few months later I asked her how it was going. She said she had told her mother (who had raised her brother and her as a single mom) about the concept. Her mother retorted that in her day they had a similar lifestyle choice, "involuntary simplicity, also known as poverty"

Maybe that is what it will take for people to take a hard look at consumption. The financial instability triggered by global climate change might help us down that path.

Not to be a bummer, and step on your buzz.

[No worries; hey, I don't feel great about the purchase, every time I drive it it's like 'greenhouse gas, greenhouse gas'. I'm super-aware, but we couldn't have gotten anything else. mjo]

[clarification on this - "we couldn't have gotten anything else". What I meant was "we reviewed every option we thought we had, and this was the best choice for us." mjo]

ahh, the good old case of do as I say not as i do, beautiful

[just not that simple mjo]

Weak...Couldn't you have converted a used SUV, to say battery power? For gods sakes please tell me you didn't buy the car brand new.

[I did not buy the car brand new, that was part of the trade-off mjo]

As for space, I'm not really buying that argument unless you tell us your 6'8". Honda's a good company but this still seems like a weak move. Is this just what happens when you get older and have kids? You give in and get conservative (or wasteful in this case)? Sorry if this sounds harsh but you know how you guys write!

So... since you live in the only first world country that won't be internalising the costs of GHG emissions from fuel, will you be taking independent action to offset the increased emissions?

I realise that the CRV is actually a pretty benign example of the SUV type, I'm not really criticising your choice at all, but I do think your last sentence of "Factor in every environmental consideration you can - and I think we did that - but ultimately, you have to choose what is best for you" is just wrong.

Telecommuting and a Bus trip means that your lifetime vehicle emissions are going to be low anyway, obviously. But from what you say above, your decision to buy an SUV was based on a poorly founded perception of increased safety, and the fact that sometimes you need to transport dishwashers.

You don't need an SUV for 3 people. It doesn't have a 3rd row, so you can't cart around more people than a small car. Can you fit a dishwasher in a CRV? More importantly, how often do you tote around dishwashers?

[more than most. We live in the city; as such, most of our need for a car is for heavy stuff - groceries, lumber, etc. This is not a commuting vehicle mjo]

It started going downhill almost immediately when you said "family of three". Unless you live in an extended family long house, you will not be carting your elderlies everywhere, everyday for their entire life. I might've given you some pity points had you had one or two more kids (and then subtracted them for having so many kids unless they were adopted).

Feeling safer in an SUV eh? I feel a lot safer knowing that you're driving around a good two feet above me with your mountain rated 4x4 tires ready to crush me at a whim. But that's ok, you'll be alive and so will your kids...err kid. That is, until your car puts that last little hole in the ozone and our oceans go haywire. I imagine that $5,000 extra that you spent on an eco-friendly table...oh no wait...I mean extra gas, sure helps out.

That would be pretty vitriolic of me to say, luckily it's all sarcasm :p I'm no idiot, I understand emotional needs and wants run pretty high in the human system, and it's pretty hard turning them down sometime, especially if you have a newborn or something along those lines. I can't really vouch for "feeling safer" having driven in one of those, I felt more like I was going to accidentally squish someone. Overall, I hope you're happy with your decision as it will be yours to live with and I'll keep my fingers crossed that you'll look at that Prius a LITTLE bit harder next time :)

From past Treehugger articles:

SUVs not safer for kids
"In fact, a recent study or insurance statistics by the Partners for Child Passenger Safety looked at accidents involving 4,000 children in newer SUV's and found the rates to be almost identical to conventional cars."
You linked to that, so why did you ignore it? It says it makes no difference!

And they're definitely not safer for the people outside your metal box:
Yet another reason to hate SUVs
"The British Medical Journal says that the death rate is double for pedestrians hit by SUV's over those hit by regular cars"

Face it, you wanted an SUV, you know it isn't green, so you've found some bad arguments to try and justify it.

If you aren't willing to make even a small sacrifice then sorry, but I don't think you can call yourself a Treehugger.

Why is this even on this site? You live in Boston and you have an SUV? is the transportation system THAT bad?

[no, it's great. And we use it every day mjo]

From your profile:
"Mark has been in IT for over a decade, working for leading universities and in the environmental consulting space. He is convinced that the only viable future - financially, socially, environmentally - for every business is one that is bright green."
How were you convinced? Are you going to have more trouble convincing businesses to be green when you show up in an SUV? Or, will they be pleased to see the SUV, because from that they can see no personal concessions will be necessary?

[Not really - Business is all about the bottom line and making really difficult choices. This is a perfect example.
mjo]

"Mark is the founder of a Boston-based consulting firm New View Data Solutions, that helps companies reduce technology-related costs, ensure environmental compliance, promote social responsibility, and take advantage of the exploding opportunities in green tech."

So, you make a living greenwashing businesses. It shouldn't surprise us that you don't actually give a ****.

There are hybrids that a comparable to the CRV. E.g. The Saturn Vue.

How come you didn't check out the Saturn Vue Green Line Hybrid? It is pretty much the same type of vehicle as the CRV.

I'm in your same (guilty) boat. I bought a Dodge Caliber last year. I had good reasons for my decision, too I needed all wheel drive for our icy, snowy winters. I needed enough ground clearance to get up mountain roads. I needed cargo room for camping gear. I needed solid construction so I wouldn't have to worry too much about the moose that share our space. That was a serious concern, actually. This past winter, two moose were hit right in front of my condo.
There were choices that would have been more ideal environmentally, but not practical for my lifestyle or budget at that time. I hope that my next car buying experience will afford me more choices of ecologically friendly, practical vehcles.

I hate to break in on your explanation, as others have before me, but you did not "need" to buy this "crossover" SUV, as you keep putting it.

I understand the safety issue that you bring up. However, how often is it that you get into any sort of dangerous situation while driving an automobile? Is your "crossover" SUV really going to protect you that much better than one of your more environmentally friendly options? You may feel safer, but the increased roll-over risk may actually be putting your family in more danger.

[maybe. But safety is not a rational issue - it's a perceived one. it's pretty powerful too - your senses are telling you something mjo]

Also, even if you do limit yourself to a category such as "crossover" SUV, there are many options available to you with a lower carbon footprint than what you have chosen. Fueleconomy.gov makes it easy to find and sort both carbon footprint and emissions data so you can make a wholly informed decision.

I'm pretty sure it's too late at this point to go back and change your mind, but, you realize you have an entire community of helpful, informed environmentalists at your fingertips, right? For future reference, I bet if you posted the question, "What should our next vehicle be?" with a set of specific criteria that you were interested in, you would have received a plethora of good suggestions.

I've transported a dishwasher in the back of my Prius. Actually just this last weekend I helped my mom pick up an antique china cabinet and chair and drove it from San Francisco over the mountains to Salem, Oregon and averaged 48MPG. It was a lot better than using a U-Haul on a hitch off the back of her 25MPG Buick. In the Prius there's 38 inches between the wheel wells and you get over 5 feet with the seats folded down.

Of course you'd only be able to have two people in the car when you're carrying such a large load.

Why didn't you join zipcar or another car-sharing service? They offer minivans and pick-ups for exactly the situations you mention here...If you really don't drive that much, and you live in an urban area (as you wrote you do), car-sharing makes a lot more sense (and can be a LOT cheaper) than buying/owning a car. I'm curious why you didn't address this...

Geez !! What a bunch of holier than thous !!!
Mountain rated tires? Give me a break ! It's a little station wagon a few inches higher than normal.
Come on.
You're acting as if he got a Ford F350 with dualies and a lift kit on it.
If he was a long haul commuter, it's one thing, if driving happens every now and then, well, trade off the extra gallons during the course of a year for a little peace of mind.
You don't forget how to drive just because you drive something bigger than a 1960s Mini Cooper.
Yeah BayBay ! Shagadelic! Stop crying and whinning, he won't hit you. (Check out the Cybercat with all of that guilt).

I have seen plenty of econoboxes driven badly. I have no defense, I am on a bicycle or a motorcycle most of the time.

But come on, all the snarky, smarmy, little girlie men attacks, ... can't you see he's got enough going on... he has kids! (I always joke that kids are for rich people).

OK Mark, now it's your turn, I will pile on just a little.
My car has 252,000 miles on it. I work on it myself, so far so good. 75000? to me that's brand new.

[I agree, I'm pissed man. I bought that car brand new 9 years ago. mjo]

Look at these maniacs telling you to buy a converted electric SUV ( I think they will handle the battery weight better due to their beefier suspensions). I say , oh please! Electrics will come and I will buy one that I like.

What was the gas mileage like on this car compared to your older one?

[it's 3 miles worse mjo]

I would suggest the Toyota Matrix or Scion Xb (boxy)? Also Subaru's little cars are pretty cool too. I just read an article on CNN about space vs. mileage.
In any case, ilegiti no se carborundum, don't let the bloggers get you down! The ozone layer will be just fine. Good Luck!!

[wife wouldn't go for the Matrix, too small. Should I have got divorced? mjo]

vsk

Wow, several other options come up. One (already mentioned) the Saturn Vue Hybrid, or the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Personally, we needed a lot of space and was driving around an SUV (no, not a cross-over) a few years ago and we traded it in for a minivan. Overall it's more comfortable, has a ton of toys and isn't too awful at the pump. It of course could be better, but the Hybrid SUVs weren't out yet.

Anyway, the word hypocrite does come to mind, as much as I hate to say it, but so does the phrase, "Judge not..." If you can sleep at night, so be it.

I think it would have been a wiser choice to repair your old car. It might be a more expensive option in the long term, but you would save all the energy, metals and so on that are needed to manufacture a new car.

Cry me a river.
This does not sound like good enough justification. I've heard this before from my 'green' friends -- who's wives ultimately pushed the decision to an SUV.

[there was a wife involved, yes mjo]

Inconvenience is just so difficult for Americans, they have it so hard already ;-)

I grew up with a family of FOUR. We had a wagon and a compact. My mother did MOST the transporting using the compact car (she had 2 accidents and was fine too.) Oh, we have SNOW up here too... We tied in/on a lot of stuff on those cars; the wagon helped build my parents house.

We eventually ended up with an old truck (before they had seatbelts) which I now have. It needs minor repair each time because it sits for 5 years at a time.

Somebody should setup a simple co-op truck sharing scheme... Having a largely unused truck is costly, using it is costly... Conventional rentals are costly.

It is odd commenting on someone elses personal decision, but since you created this post apparently just so that we could... I will.

I feel that space is very, very small sacrafice to make, considering what/who you are supporting, what the environmental consequences are, and what kind of message you are sending your child.

For another $1500 you could have fixed up your old car to keep for moving dishwashers and grandma, and bought a hybrid (or Fit, or Yaris, etc.) to satisfy most of your driving needs.

This reads like an ad for the ambivalent. Why chose the shiny image?

Sure we often make choices that trade off environmental criteria against personal desires. It seems to me that by putting it here, you are trying to justify it to yourself and maybe claim some special green identity.

Personally, I would prefer if "treehugger" did not cover "its" particularly anti-environmental choices.

"I'm super-aware, but we couldn't have gotten anything else" - what? Denying choice is antithetical to everything treehugger stands for.

I understand making purchases that aren't environmentally the best for emotional or comfort reasons (I just bought an air conditioner myself), but I have to say I'm baffled by both of your arguments here. Needing space for a family that could easily fit into a Prius is a very common argument for buying SUVs, and yet I'd bet that almost everyone who currently feels like they need an SUV for their family grew up driving around with a family the same size or bigger in nothing larger than a station wagon. I understand the occasional need to carry more people or bigger stuff, but unless this is happening on at least a monthly basis (in which case I would expect your annual mileage to be over 6,000), the environmental impact would be a lot lower for renting an additional or bigger car when you need one than for driving an SUV all the time (even a relatively high-mileage SUV like the CRV). And if you know you'll need one a few days in advance, you can get really cheap rates on rental cars; I've had to rent something twice since giving up my car three months ago, and each time I've gotten rates significantly under $20/day (and if you carry your own car insurance, you do not need to buy the rental agency's).

[we have done the rental thing for years - it is not that easy, particularly in Boston. You drive across town to get there, you rent it, you have to take it back. When you do this every month, you are dropping a few grand a few on rental plus your time mjo]

As for the safety issue -- was "feeling" safer really a significant deciding factor, even though you know SUVs are seriously overrated in that regard? I realize that's a very common reason for buying an SUV, and there is some truth to SUVs being safer in an accident for the occupants, but SUVs also increase the incidence of accidents over all -- partly because they're bigger, heavier, and harder to stop, and partly because they pose a serious visibility problem for smaller cars. I'd also be willing to bet that that feeling of safety makes people more careless drivers, too.

I realize I've got no right to judge or anything here. I'm just baffled by your reasoning, because these reasons you give are exactly the ones that people who don't care about the environment have been giving for wanting to drive SUVs since forever. I saw the headline and read the post expecting some more compelling reason within the interview -- and perfectly willing to admit it, if it was there -- but it just wasn't.

I faced a similar dilemma. What I really wanted was a biodiesel pluggable hybrid. Alas those won't be on the market for a while. I was very tempted to get a Jetta TDI and attempt to run it on biodiesel. We don't have enough biodiesel production where I live yet. I chose the Jetta because it got better mileage than the Prius which was my next choice but it's not pluggable. In stop and go traffic a Prius is ideal. I wanted a Honda Civic Hybrid but it's drive train didn't allow for the engine to be off.

So everything I wanted either didn't exist or wouldn't exist for a few years. I couldn't afford either of the hybrids Honda or Toyota. So I went with a used 2001 Honda Civic. I've gotten great gas mileage. I've gotten as high as 40MPG highway and 33 city though I usually get less than that. I'll adopt what hypermiling techniques make sense for me though.

I hope to make this car last 5 or 6 years until the kind of car I desire becomes available. Of course if I lived where they had decent public transport I'd give up the car altogether, but I don't. 1st choice would be all electric. 2nd choice pluggable biodiesel hybrid 3rd choice pluggable gas hybrid. Though if I end up living close to work I could get a bicycle and my wife and I could live with one vehicle.

My first car was a Mitsubishi Mirage... my second (purchased after the Mirage was totalled in an accident, while parked) was a Honda del Sol... when we had our second child, I traded the del Sol for a VW Cabrio. All three of those cars were manual transmission, and got fantastic gas mileage (35+ mpg city). Two years ago next week, we had a flash flood. Driving home with my son from the grocery, the catchbasin at the end of the street overflowed, and my VW *floated* down the street in 4 ft of water... I crawled out through the window, and then pulled my son out. The next day, I bought a Jeep.

I telecommute, so the Jeep is very lightly driven... but I will never again drive a car that can fit UNDER a semi.

Did you consider the Ford Escape Hybrid? It's proven to be very reliable, offers pretty much everything you were after, and gets ~50% better mileage than the CR-V.... and it's a hypermiler's dream since you can really finesse the hybrid system to get better mileage.

"... and these rentals can really add up."

So have the dishwasher delivered. Or, if you're selling one, have the buyer pick it up. I still doubt they'll come anywhere close to adding up to the price you're going to pay for the additional gas over the next five years.

[nope, we probably spent $1500 a year on rentals mjo]

And second news flash, a CRV doesn't really have the cargo capacity to carry a large boxed item like a dishwasher anyway. So you effectively rationalized your way into buying a larger vehicle (for three people) to in order to possibly, maybe, carry something it can't carry anyway.

[the crv can carry several dishwashers mjo]

You MIGHT want to do some landscaping and carry a half-ton or so of rock, too. By that logic, why not buy an F-350?

The arguments aren't strong enough to justify the purchase, IMO. Hopefully you mean it when you say you don't drive much.

Sometimes I'm amazed that the rest of the world can manage to raise families without SUVs, the way they're talked about in the States.

I seriously have never understood the argument about there not being enough room or that kids aren't safe in a sedan. So many people I know say they "need" a big car for the kids. Three kids fit in a back seat of a Prius or any other sedan just fine. And how often are you carting giant appliances around in your car? I just don't see how these arguments add up to needing an SUV. Especially in a city like Boston where you'd probably want as small a car as possible so you can navigate traffic and park easily.

I take it you didn't try to find an Escape/Mariner/Tribute hybrid first? If you live in the city and drive slow, those hardly use gas at all. Otherwise, a family of three is no excuse to drive something any bigger than a Camry. The CR-V is one of the most efficient SUVs (gets better mileage than some cars), but it's hardly a vehicle for someone trying to set an example.

[we make decisions for our family first; is this much different from every other human on the planet? mjo]

If you need a big car a few times a year - why not just rent one? I can't seriously believe you really need an SUV. So much for your green commitments.

"... and these rentals can really add up."

Home Depot rents trucks for about $20 (for 75 minutes)

I probably use these about three times a year at most, and the gas I save the rest of the year in my compact car more than makes up for the money spent on the rental.

It's not as convenient as owning a truck, but I don't consider it convenient to spend twice as much gas on a normal basis.

When we get out of our townhouse and into a house, I intend to get a small trailer and save the extra drive and expense. I've been wanting one for my kayaks anyway, and pretty much any small car can tow at least 500 lbs without much trouble.

Treehugger is one of the few trusted sources of information - and again you present reality as it is. Unfortunately for you, you set the bar high, if you cant reach it many others will sway too - you must realise that you have a huge power to influence, you are trend makers and leaders..

[I agree, but let's not simplify. I would argue that we have a rather odd transportation requirements; two working parents with no commute, for starters. We weren't in the "I'm driving 100 miles a day for for 100K job in a rustbucket, and I just swapped it for a Prius!" scenario. mjo]

Being british, we love to knock down the hypocritical and do so with much glee, can't say I am impressed, but i can empathise - no doubt there were more immediate needs that had to met before the environment (for once!).

Boston has zipcar, which means you need a truck for something you got it, for an hour or 24.

Boston has public transportation to die for, Boston is walkable/bikeable.

At least you came clean about it, for what that's worth, but you lost me somewhere along the way.

Hitting unsubscribe, and looking elsewhere for inspiration.

Well, as a treehugger I went through this dilemma. I live in the French countryside and shoot landscapes out here (I really do need a 4wd to get to some of the inaccessible places I shoot. (walking takes too long!)
I opted for a 3yo diesel RAV4 with 100k miles on the clock, which I am planning to have converted to run on raw vege oil. (conversion from www.elsbett.com (and available in the US...)) (the car gives about 40mpg now!) This seemed like the best option. I know you are stuck with petrol gas guzzling engines there, but there must have been a better solution than the Honda with it's lousy fuel consumption.

I think the Ford Escape hybrid is a much better choice. You can really do a lot better on gas with it, especially if you're a hypermiller. Furthermore, it could actually accommodate a large(r) purchase like a small to mid sized appliance or a large TV with ease. You claim you needed room for kids (and things, and kids things), but I test drove a CRV and we couldn't comfortably seat four adults (only one being over 6') in it. The Escape also has excellent safety ratings, and you would've spent the same if not less money for a car that would've been a better fit for your needs as you describe them. Furthermore, if you're a family of three, how much of your extended family were you going to try to cram into the CRV? Sounds more like you didn't do proper research and got hung up on a name brand over the actual functionality you needed.

I've gotta say that's about the worst Treehugger story I've ever read.

Sure, we're all crap at the environment from time to time, but to then do a "justification" piece on exactly what we DON'T want to be doing???

I agree with the people above bewildered about your reasons as well.

A point on the space issue, that could easily be geared up to say you should have a van, as they carry even more. Will your new CRV carry a few 15' lengths of timber to make that chook shed/vegie garden/whatever?

At the end of the day it IS that simple. How much did the new SUV cost? A lot less than the $1,500 to repair the old car I'd say. Even if the repairs double to $3,000, it's be better to keep the old thing until a manufacturer releases a SUV (or whatever) that's part of the solution, rather than the problem.

He only drives 6,000 miles a year, and doesn't use the vehicle to commute. It doesn't really matter what he drives -- his consumption (~200gal, assuming 30mpg) will still be an order of magnitude less than what I burn while driving my 40mpg Jetta TDI for 45,000 miles(~1125gal).

From what I've gathered, the average driver drives about 12,000 miles per year. He probably could drive a Hummer H3 and still not be too far away from the average fuel consumption.

P.S. I plan to move within walking distance of work, but we'll see how quickly my house sells...