Financially secure people have access to education and have fewer children.

Poverty is not the way to sustainability.

good point, john.

the population bomb is stopping because of education, high standards of living and lower fertility.

With the current administration, yes. (all of the article is yes, but bare with me) But if the economy is stimulated with green measures, such as clean energy jobs and loans, we could gain a little ground in some areas. In other words, put the subsidies where they are actually needed (or just get rid of them).

Back to reality...

How about the ever-rising cost of food in relation to shrinking incomes? Let alone the people who can no longer afford organic food and have to revert to a fertilizer-driven food supply...

The economy is primarily driven by companies that provide environmentally destructive products. We should not buy things just to prop up the economy. In fact, the best thing that we could do is spend nothing unless we are sure it will benefit the environment. Of course we need food and some shelter, but we don't need to travel, purchase the latest gadgets, watch tv etc. The big concern I have is that politicians will not push environmentally friendly legislation with the false excuse that it will harm the economy. Only a blind person could drive around the average metro area and not see that we could keep 100% of everyone employed rehabing houses that need new windows, insulation, furnaces, etc. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done in this country. That it is not being done is to some degree due to the wealth disparity in this country. Who has money for insulation? We need higher taxes on the wealthy and a higher minimum wage. Then give grants to the lower income individuals for energy saving projects. That would kick up the economy and help the environment and reduce the crime rate and improve health and......

Actually, what makes an economy healthy is savings, not consumer spending.

Spending gives a short-term boost; you end up with a TV, they have a sale.

But savings means that the money is then directed (bank loans, stock market, etc) to productive uses (capital acquisition, R&D, increasing productivity, hiring labor).

So yeah, don't listen to the government and don't consume if there's a recession. You'll help the economy by saving.

Another effect that the recession will have on the enviroment is the falling cost of crude oil. It will undoubtebly test 80 dollars a barrel in the coming weeks.

This cost reduction is based on supply growing due to consumer confidence dropping. Less people driving around may seem good for the enviroment but with lower gas costs companies are less likely to stir up ideas in alternative energy.

I know there is also a flaw here in that less cars driving IS good for the enviroment but in the long term the price of oil is more important. At 100 dollars in early January there was a lot of chatter on alternative fuels, today people are talking about low oil costs as being a good thing for the economy, maybe this is true in the short term but probably not the long term.

I think that anyone who talks about the economy and how to make it better should have at least $10,000 in saving or at least have a positive net worth of at least that much no matter how much they make.

You should not be supported by your parents or anyone else no matter how much you make, that means you pay for everything that you own, your car, rent, cell phone, internet connection, etc.

If you cannot support yourself financially I really don't want to hear how YOU think the economy can be made better because you can't even manage your own life.

There was a recent post (Recession Rain on the Carbon Parade) about this relating specifically to the carbon market, and strangely enough it made the exact same 4 points. I think global warming is where the real pain will come.

At first I wasn't sure if this was all tongue in cheek, or humor.
Umm, where are you?
Climate change is, and will be, forcing economic decisions on us all.
Recession, or no recession.
Therefore the capital that we speak of here that is needed to reverse the disastrous economic consequences of climate change is not something that would be coming by means of "market" decisions by either private investors or consumers.
The "environment" is not waiting for a market solution to climate change.
The environment is the common good. It is the public interest, and it is in the public interest to protect and preseve the environment so that we may enjoy many more years of healthy prosperity.
THAT is the economic GAIN from protecting the environment. Future prosperity from a healthy planet.
The fact of the deepening recession will have no impact on the effort to make the best climate change decisions work in whatever the economic environment happens to be.
The environment is not negotiable for the betterment of the market.
The smart market is undoubtedly supporting the protection of the environment, noty because they see themselves as saving the planet.
They know that a failure to protect the planet can result in calamities that can cause them all to soon be broke.
We will all pay the price through whatever taxes it takes to see that solutions are timely and effective.
Recesion, or no recession.
The environment is not negotiable for the betterment of the market.

I am welcoming the recession. I am trying to be optimistic and hoping that Americans may 1) realize how much money having and driving a car costs 2) learn how to save instead of borrow and 3) keep it up after the recession has passed.

I am not saying all people should get rid of their cars (impossible but a nice thought). Just that people make informed decisions and stop thinking that an hour commute is just fine (on purpose!). Here in Milwaukee we have people who live an hour out and drive into work every day... and that time isn't based on the traffic (we barely have any).

Recession can lead to more sharing, which is a good thing!

More people sharing homes, TVs, cars, home-cooked meals, books, etc.

The more serious the recession, the more necessity for sharing.

Unfortunately, a serious recession may be the only way to reduce global warming any time soon.

Food wise, reduced spend can lead to more gardening, and less land-intensive foods such as meat. A reduction in farm land can lead to increased wilderness.

The article that Lloyd linked to from "10 Ways the Recession Can Help the Environment" says:

"Farmers grow crops mostly to be fed to animals to feed a populations consumption of meat. Already more than 70% of all farming land is used for raising livestock, covering 30% of the world’s land surface, and responsible for 18% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions.

The Chinese diet is changing, as the population is becoming richer they are demanding more luxury food such as meat, meaning more fields turned over to animal crops and more pesticides and fertilizer needed to grow these extra crops.

A reduction in consumer demand will cut the amount of money in the average Chinese farmers pocket, causing them to go back to boringly efficient food stuffs such as rice."

This recession is different than the "once every ten years" cycle. This recession is accompanied by massive inflation, a combination also known as stagflation - devastating to an economy.

A economic slowdown is not going to seriously reduce oil prices. Apparently the US has actually reduced consumption of fossil fuels over the last 5 years (likely due to so much outsourcing.) The price increase is a combination of the demand from Indo-China and the lower production from conventional sources.

TH is a "nice" website and all but it doesn't get to the root of the problem - sustainability. It's just a buzzword. What product advertised on this site is truly sustainable? To be sustainable we are talking about an incredible change in standards of living.

On the positive side our economy will naturally correct itself. Current capitalism is based on the assumption that nature is a *subsystem* of the economy. When that assumption turns out to be untrue the game collapses.

What this site does lend itself to is the massive shift in consciousness that is happening. What happens when it reaches a critical point?? When the realization comes en masse that happiness isn't dependent on externalities... I don't know but it's going to be an amazing time to be alive.

namaste

There are a handful of comments up here I completely agree with, first off, running out spending money (in a lot of cased money people really cant afford to be spending) to help a short boom in the economy is not wise. Especially for the family that is already have a hard time putting food on the table, that new flat screen is really not doing you much good in the big picture.
And I must completely agree with John, poverty is not the way to sustainability, and throwing another child into your already financially strained life is not going to make you "feel better" and have a happier family, this place is over populated as it is, what we dont need around here is another famliy of 7 living off the government because parents cant make ends meet as it is, why should the government support you for making a poor choice, why should you split your means to feed one more mouth when your struggling with the ones you have?
Makes no scense to me, I see it everyday, the single mom with 4 kids who cant make ends meet, but she's driving a brand new Explorer around? Anyone see the problem with this and why we're slipping into a recession??

hello u guys are werid

Right now, that usually means that greener products won't make it. Maybe someday if we start taxing bads instead of goods -pollution, carbon, toxins instead of labor, income, capital gains- the least expensive products will also be the greenest, but right now that's not the case.

When you discover a way that pollution, carbon, and toxins can be taxed without taxing capital, land, or labour in the process, please inform the Nobel committee of your breakthrough.

Recessions are not as important as prices and financial stability. Higher prices in polluting energies (oil, gas, etc.) cause higher investments into green technology (solar, fuel cells, wind, etc.) even before incentives are injected into the economy. Financial stability allow necessary capital to flow into startup firms and expand existing firms.

So, prices and financial stability are key, not the economic cycle.

--
ed: You simply tax the sources of these (ie. oil, natural gas, coal). Of course you can't tax them directly in the abstract.