Green Cars are driven by Oxymorons

Hi !
First of all: the CNRS does not represent the whole France and/or French people opinion. Thanks to notice this is obvious.

Second: your post is of great interest; but you honestly can't comment without transporting yourself in the France context. We got a fight between those who are in the process of trying hardly to desengage people from using their car at all (and buying a new one), and those who think that we need more roads with greener cars.
My personal opinion is that the less cars we use, the greener we will be, better than driving the same amount of cars, even greener cars. In Paris, just as an example, there is for a few years, a real push towards public transportation (bus, rail, metro, shared cars, etc), which is acclaimed by the Parisians (and the tourists as far as I know).

The CNRS study is to read in this context.

Thanks you for your news.
Chris (from France, but you already guessed).

The point that has to be made is that most people driving about in their Priuses (Prii?) think that their 50 mpg is an amazing and makes Toyota worthy of applause. But truly, many people are obsessed with the term 'hybrid' and are blind to the fact that many gas engine (non hybrid) cars are able to get much better mileage. There are many ways to make a vehicle more efficient (just take a look at the recent post on the AeroCivic, or the fuel sipping Renault diesels) that should be addressed before you go and shove a battery in a car. I'm not saying that hybrids are bad, they are a good development, but they make many people unaware of the general lack of effort put forth by many auto companies to keep on pushing the status quo -- If you investigate a bit, you will realize that Toyota doesn't wish to take the next obvious step to begin developing and marketing more efficient EVs because they have a firm grasp on the hybrid market with their comparatively gas guzzling 40-50 mpg Prius.

I'm not sure whether your issue is with the proliferation of reports that come to the same conclusion as other reports, or whether your issues is with the conclusions at which they have arrived. In any sase:

1) In the interests of developing sound policy, it is good to rely upon a variety of sources. These will either collaborate findings, or dispute and contradict the findings of others. Both useful in developing policy. Furthermore, sound poicy development relies on 'studies'. Policy makers can't just rely on 'conventional wisdom' that isn't substantiated.

2)Various institues/organisations undertake research in isloation and independent of others and this may result in similar reports being released within short succession. This in itself, for the reaosns stated above, is not a bad thing.

3) That the reports have identified short comings in hybrid behicles should not be taken as a negative. It could in itself spur development in alternative technologies and prevent the industry from resting on its laurels and/or encourage Governments to adopt policies which further encourage development in more sustainable transport. It is a fact that hybrid vehicles are not the be-all and end-all and are not the most efficient/effective sollution in all circumstances.

4) When you say "[g]et active and involved in the issues behind alternative fuels", I presume you mean the negative, as well as the positive issues? Biofuels good when produced from waste and by-products, but bad when result in loss of arable land for food production and increased cost of food. ...? And how exactly is the average Joe supposed to get "active and involved'?

'the fact that many gas engine (non hybrid) cars are able to get much better mileage' and youre examples are a custom 90's civic and a deisel? that hardly proves your point. Hybrids may not be a perfect solution, but they are a step in the right direction. And as far as Toyota not wanting to develop/sell EV's because they have control of the hybrid market- thats rubbish. No major car company sells EV's- why? because (in their minds) the general public wouldnt accept the limitations that any EV would have with the current proven tech available. Toyota,GM,Honda etc plan years in advance and considering how new the hybrids are (and how slow other manufacturers have been to jump on the hybrid bandwagon) I dont see how its fair to single out Toyota for not having an EV in their lineup in 2008. I doubt we will see an EV from a major manufacturer for 5-10 IF that. Cars like the Chevy Volt and plugin Hybrids will most likely have to be on the market for years before the general public would be willing to take the next step to a EV. Large corporations dont change courses quickly- and neither does the general public.

Totally agree with Manu, just because it's a hybrid doesn't make it green. It's becoming more and more of a marketing buzz word if you ask me.

Aren't you overreacting a bit Christine?
I think they have a point, just look at the air-car from MDI http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7243247.stm

I won't be pissed off if you drive a hybrid, if you post a comment on some website or if you prove me wrong, but I am French. The only way you pissed me off, is your title...totally inapropriate! Plus, the word "inanity" is far too exagerated. CNRS concludes inanities, what about MIT who apparently said exaxtly the same thing in 2003? They are just doing research, then it's up to you. What's the big deal about French people?

Yep, I agree. 50mpg from a Prius is pathetic compared to the sorts of mileages we regularly get from small efficient diesels here in Europe. See:
http://jalopnik.com/356497/hypermiling-the-2007-honda-civic-22-i+ctdi-and-2007-audi-q7-42-tdi
They got nearly 75mpg out of a new Honda Civic! No hybrid tech onboard.
Sure hybrids raise awareness and allow movie stars to feel good about themselves, but they are pretty useless as eco-vehicles! They are simply a stepping stone, and no giant Ford pickup hybrid is ever going to be anything like an eco-vehicle, no matter how many green stickers you put on it!
Frankly I suspect that the only thing that will make US cars anything like as fuel efficient as EU cars are becoming is very high fuel taxes, (to make fuel pretty much as expensive as it is in the EU.) and I don't see that coming any time soon!

Yep, I agree. 50mpg from a Prius is pathetic compared to the sorts of mileages we regularly get from small efficient diesels here in Europe. See:
http://jalopnik.com/356497/hypermiling-the-2007-honda-civic-22-i+ctdi-and-2007-audi-q7-42-tdi
They got nearly 75mpg out of a new Honda Civic! No hybrid tech onboard.
Sure hybrids raise awareness and allow movie stars to feel good about themselves, but they are pretty useless as eco-vehicles! They are simply a stepping stone, and no giant Ford pickup hybrid is ever going to be anything like an eco-vehicle, no matter how many green stickers you put on it!
Frankly I suspect that the only thing that will make US cars anything like as fuel efficient as EU cars are becoming is very high fuel taxes, (to make fuel pretty much as expensive as it is in the EU.) and I don't see that coming any time soon!

Hybrids are a leap forward in reducing oil use in the world. Yes, they still consume oil, but the changes that are necessary to move entirely to a sustainable energy economy are not easy to make. Interim steps such as hybrids appear to be the best first step. Much focus is being put onto electric drive cars driven by either batteries or fuel cells. That technology isn't yet ready for mass market, however, hybrid cars contain some of the preliminary technologies that are necessary for a shift toward electric drive automobiles. Here is what I see happening in somewhat chronological order....
- Hybrid drive cars continuing to increase in market share because of the improved fuel economy and the publics increased awareness in environmental issues as well as the publics perceptions of the economic and political impacts of continued use of oil and other fossil fuels.
- Plug-in hybrd cars will allow short distance full electric travel in short commutes
- Full electric battery cars will eventually go on sale (batteries only)
- Full electric fuel cell cars may eventually go on sale (fuel cells supported maybe by batteries)

Other technologyies such as internal combustion hydrogen, compressed air, bio-diesel, alcohol, etc may also enter the mix.

Does the existing fossil fuel economy suddenly disappear? No, definitely not, but the economics and public awareness and public perception of the continued use of fossil fuels likely will drive the market for automobiles away from the current path of only using fossil fuels at an inefficient rate. The automobile manufacturers will follow by chasing the consumer with products that the consumer will buy. The current hybrids are an early example. Market share for hybrids is growing and it is for a range of reasons.
- Cool technology
- Like to see how much fuel economy can be obtained
- Feels good to save energy and help the environment
= Wants to save money on fuel

Sorry, but they are basically right. No hybrid available today gets better mileage than the VW TDI's. Plenty of gas cars get similar or better mileage as the Prius. Plenty of people have purchased "hybrids" which are still just gas guzzling gigantor vehicles for which they have no reason to be driving.

I think they are warning against the public becoming satisfied with their "hybrid" and therefore not creating the market demand/pressure for truly innovative vehicles. Look at how Toyota is dragging its feet with the plug-in Prius? 8 miles of all electric? Total bullox. The 2009 VW TDI Sport Wagon gets 50+mpg on the highway. 50+! For a real car. Not just a real car, but a sport edition, with some kick ass performance and wagon interior space/functionality.

Shame on you, Christine. You should not let yourself be taken in by the veiled business as usual crowd and their greenwashing techniques. Hybrids raised awareness 5 years ago. Time is long overdue for the next step.

How about change your #1 to:

Buy a car that gets similar or better mileage than the Prius. Copy your bill of sale. Send it to Toyota explaining how you chose this vehicle over the Prius due to your opinion that Toyota has delayed a reasonable PHEV version. Explain to them that you will keep this new car for as long as possible before replacing, since that is the responsible thing to do. Therefore, Toyota has lost you as a potential customer for the next 7-10 years.

Give them one caveat: If the 2010 Chevy Volt really is all its cracked up to be, you will seriously consider upgrading then.

This is about much more than just mileage. It is about grams of CO2, particulates,SOX, and NOX emitted per mile driven. In this regard European diesels, which are among the very best at mileage the world has known, are definitely inferior. It is no coincidence that Europe has waited so long to issue a low sulfer diesel fuel standard: their makers focused only on mileage.

And in this regard the Prius kicks French butt.

While the MPG figures of hybrids may be matched by some other vehicles such as diesels, hybrids far exceed those vehicles in reduced emissions, which is just as important to many hybrid owners such as myself.

Ask me about my Mercury Mariner Hybrid.

Looks like the French have inadvertantly come across another way to piss off hyper-sensitive Americans simply by doing something perfectly rational.. Is obession with hybrid cars different in any substantive way than the obsession that results in people putting anti-Chevy stickers in the back window of their Ford trucks (or vice versa)?

Lou,

Reduced emissions is a red herring, you should be smart enough to know that. The new Tier II BIN 5 emissions regs for light duty diesels make them as clean as gassers. That 09 TDI Sportwagon I referred to is one of many T2B5 diesels coming out.

You Mercury hybrid is a horrible gas guzzling pig. What, maybe 30MPG on the highway if you are VERY lucky? That's pathetic. The current 2007 TDI wagon is more usable, faster, safer (lower center of grav) and gets a good 45mpg for the typical driver. So no, I didn't have to ask you, I had to tell you about your joke of a green vehicle.

Oh wait, did I mention the TDI can run B100 from used vegetable oil? Did I mention it can have a simple kit installed to burn straight up used vegetable oil?

Only way you can even think about coming back out of your gas guzzling hole is if you install an aftermarket PHEV kit in that thing. Somehow I don't think you're going to spend the $10K.

"...interim measures are a natural step on the path to long-term solutions."

But we already have long-term solutions available (but not widely implemented). The solutions are:
- public transport (especially electric LRT and electric trolley buses)
- cycling
- walking
- redesigning cities and towns to make the above more practical

Hybrids, electric vehicles, alternate fuel vehicles are NOT a sustainable solutions for personal transportation in an urban or suburban environment. They may be a solution for remote rural areas and for some goods movement but certainly NOT for the majority of people.

I know I will be attacked for this viewpoint but instead of attacking me I challenge anyone to offer evidence-based proof that these types of vehicles are sustainable in the long term.

Anyone who has done ecological footprint calculations knows that is very hard, maybe impossible, to get down to a one-planet footprint using any of these types of vehicles.

We need to stop promoting false solutions and focus on real solutions.

I know that right now not everyone can use public transit, or cycling or walking for all their transportation needs but that is what we need to be working towards - not false solutions.

"But if you really need a Tahoe for your transportation needs"

Come on, how many people would that be? My guess is at most 1% of the people who own one.

"In one of the most egregious cases of not trusting the available wisdom and having to prove it to themselves, ..."

Strange I see this behaviour mainly from US researchers,
I know a number of studies in the field of renewable energy that were first done in Europe, and than repeated by US researchers, who would present their work as the first study done on the subject.

"Green Cars are driven by Oxymorons"

Wow, clever saying but oh so hypocritical.

Where does the food you eat and clothes you wear come from? I bet a diesel burning tractor helps grow the food you eat, and more diesel burned to truck it to the store.

Nobody cares if you ride your bike to work and the store, the big picture is still the big picture.

I'm getting ready to be impressed by the hybrid vehicles fuel economy. Just as soon as they get substantially better fuel economy than what the Loremo is reported to get. As Dirty Harry would say...go ahead (hybrid makers) make my day.

And I've been to France, and had a great time!

1. Diesels produce 14% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline cars so a 57 MPG diesel produces as much CO2 as a 50 MPG gasoline car.

2. 75 MPG diesels can't hold a candle to 50 MPG hybrids in city driving. That's 75 MPG on the Autobahn not crawling through the Latin district. There the gasoline engine is off a lot of the time and the hybrid is still getting 50 MPG while the diesel is getting at absolute best 30 MPG. In my experience, much less than that as you creep along at a few kilometers per hour.

3. Why are we having this argument? Priuses are not the problem. How about 12 MPG SUV's.

4. Why are we having this argument? Since when is France a problem for the environment? How about the US or China? Besides, it's fun to say Sarkozy.

It's a raging controversy. I had no idea.

I followed the link mentioned above to "hypermiling" and found a site singing the praises of diesels, taking shots and hybrids, and blaming all sorts of people for keeping the diesels out of the US.

But right there in the comments section was a pretty convincing rebuttal and a link to an even more complete rebuttal. It convinced me, anyway, that diesels aren't magical, are less magical still when meeting US pollution standards. They are no silver bullet. Here's the link: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/the-truth-about-diesels-2/

But that's beside the point. Hostility towards one type of high efficiency vehicle because you like a different type is misplaced when we live in a world of 12 MPG SUV's. People are still buying them. They are just so cool. Gonna get me a black Escalade with the big chrome wheels and tinted windows. Global Warming? BRING IT ON! That sort of thing.

BTW. I quoted diesels as putting out 14% more CO2 per gallon. I calculated this from the US EPA data. Other people quote 17%. I don't know where they get this. Here is the US EPA site: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm

"Nobody cares if you ride your bike to work and the store, the big picture is still the big picture."

Pffff.....yeah and your vote is only one out of millions....but somehow the government gets in.....the big picture is made up of lots of little pictures.

"Green Cars are driven by Oxymorons"

Yeah that is clever, and funny! While everyone's waiting around for an extra 10mpg, which might make the oil last oooohh another 2 years, some of us are trying to think past that.
BE BLOODY THANKFUL THAT YOU'VE HAD A CAR!

Yikes, you people are astonishingly unwilling to do a minor Google search to get the real info.

If the diesel and gasoline magically appeared, without drilling, sucking, refining, transport, storage, you'd be right. Diesel would put out more C02 per mile.

BUT, there is this simple concept known as Well-To-Wheels efficiency. Look it up. Then learn how normal fossil diesel is more efficient than gasoline.

Now that that's settled, look at how much better you feel, now that you have the CORRECT information.

Back to emissions, WTF with that comment about "less so with US emissions"? You dope, US T2B5 is the strictest IN THE WORLD. Makes light duty diesels AS CLEAN AS GASOLINE. There, I have repeated that twice now. Is that enough to get through that thick bone plate?

And finally, respond to the major point I made and you all conveniently overlooked: diesel vehicles can burn biodiesel of almost any percent. Biodiesel is light years ahead of current ethanol from corn in energy return ratio. If you use feedstocks like Soy, or better yet, waste vegetable oil, all of a sudden the real C02 per mile is reduced to negligible levels.

Wait, one more thing: diesels last MUCH longer than gas equivalents. We're talking 3-4 times. Look it up, easy info to find. They have much longer intervals between oil changes due to their much lower operating RPMs. Oops, that's 2 more things. Them hits just keep on a coming!

Can't do any of that with a gas vehicle, hybrid or not.

That dope who was so smitten with his Mercury hybrid SUV is the exact person the French are worried about. He's smitten with a vehicle that is much larger than necessary (though not even enough to be used as a real large vehicle), and gets between 25-30mpg. He'll be in that thing for another 5-10 years. That's f-in scary, and he's totally convinced he's being GREEN.

So, let's sum up. Right now, light duty diesel vehicles trump current model hybrids in multiple aspects. Automakers can very easily make PHEVs, gas or diesel, that would make a REAL difference. PHEVs will be delayed because Joe/Jane idiot love them their Prius and are therefore not creating the demand for a real PHEV.

Only a retard would blame a Prius driver for not demanding PHEV's (when no manufacturer has anything close to market). If we didnt have the 1st generation Prius- we probably wouldnt have the latest Prius,Camry,Escape,Malibu,Tahoe etc hybrids- and it will most likely be the owners of those hybrids that are the first adopters of PHEV's.

I also have to object to the title- not that I object to pissing off the French (being of French ancestry, I consider it an enormous pleasure to poke fun at my overseas cousins), but that the article has barely any "pissing off" value.

So the French have a few stuffy, self-important agencies that issue meaningless, repetitive, irrelevant reports- as if we, in the US, don't?

Looking at all aspects of the issues, comparing the "carbon footprint" of a new hybrid vehicle vs an existing, used vehicle, comparing the dollar cost of buying a new, more efficient vehicle vs fixing up my old one-

I'm making less of an impact fixing up and continuing to drive my 16 year old Buick sedan than buying a new anything; it actually still gets better mpg than a new, comparable model, the energy cost of manufacturing has been amortized, and keeping it and repairing it as needed is much easier on my wallet than anything that's likely to come from GM or Toyota in the next decade.

The used car market in the US has the same gross multibillion dollar volume as the new car market, and four times the total vehicle volume; interesting that it's ignored in these discussions.

Would buying a shiny new hybrid vehicle make "green" sense, or economic sense, for me? No.

Does it make sense for others? Apparently, for 80% of car buyers in the US, the answer is still- No.

Does it make sense, overall, to replace old cars with new, considering the energy cost of manufacturing? Despite the higher pollution levels of older cars, for most of us the answer is still- No.

My best personal "green" strategy is in keeping my present vehicle in good running condition, eliminating unnecessary trips, carpooling, walking/riding a bike/using my motorscooter when appropriate; Okay, none of these things are as "sexy" as bashing car manufacturers or oil companies (not that I defend either), but these alternatives make economic sense for me, and, if enough other consumers do the same it can and will make a difference.

Where can I find a good well to wheel analysis? The only ones I know about are the 2001 study by GM, ExxonMobil et al and the 2002 one by GM, ExxonMobil, Shell, et al. They do a fine job of showing that hydrogen fuel cell cars when the H is derived from a conventional electrical grid are not an improvement over conventional gasoline cars. But I didn't find what I was looking for which is just how much more energy does it take to come up with a gallon of gasoline than a gallon of diesel, or more precisely, how much more GHG is emitted simply getting the gasoline.