Triple Hybrid with Ultracapacitors Hits the Road
by Lloyd Alter, Toronto on 01.13.08
We have not seen an EEStor ultracap car on the road yet, but AFS Trinity Power has a prototype plug-in hybrid on the road for the auto show that mixes batteries, ultracapacitors and a gas engine, creating a hybrid hybrid. Matthew Wald of the New York Times explains why with a tasteful analogy:
"The problem in a hybrid is not only how much energy the batteries hold, a quality called energy density, but how fast they can deliver it, called power density. The difference between energy density and power density is like the difference between a wine jug and a peanut butter jar — the containers may have the same capacity, but the size of their openings differ greatly."
The AFS Trinity Vue undergoing modification for the installation of its new drivetrain. Brad Husick
Wald notes that under acceleration the batteries have huge momentary discharge rates, so a lot of them are needed to spread the load. They are the wine bottles- you can only get so much out of them in a given time. With batteries, they can heat up and even catch fire.
That is where the ultracapacitors come in: "To cover the gap between the batteries’ ability to supply energy and the demand of the hybrid’s electric motor, the experimental Vue uses ultracapacitors, which are the electrical equivalent of the peanut butter jar....the ultracapacitors can be filled from the lithium-ion batteries and then emptied quickly into the motor that drives the wheels as the driver demands."
And in case you are feeling analogy deprived he adds another: "In use, the capacitors function much like the water tank on a toilet. That reservoir lets the toilet get by with a small supply pipe, yet still delivers a large volume at once for flushing."
Result: a car that can go forty miles on electricity only (farther than the great majority of trips Americans take in a day) before the gas engine kicks in. More in the ::New York Times
See John's explanation of Hybrid Proplusion Vehicles Using Ultracapacitors
A tri-brid then.
What is the mpg equivalency measured against? CO2 emissions of a gallon of gas in a standard engine (not the new combustion technique, HCCI or something?) vs. CO2 from the average US powerplant?
Or is it the cost/mile using gasoline converted to cost/mile using electricity?
The measurements can get so complex, if there isn't a standard in place we need one, or there will be plenty of confusion in the marketplace. People will be buying these vehicles because they may save them money, instead of just saving the world. When they find out that the assumptions in the marketing don't apply to them there will be a consumer backlash.
So who is responsible?
Any idea on the additional cost of the ultracaps? This vehicle has 3 systems so it seems to me it would be expensive.
'A tri-brid' ... nice :)
They say the total system will cost an additional $8500. Of course over time the price may come down.
The more interesting thing to me is that ultra capacitors could mean really quick recharge times
My roundtrip commute to work is 10 miles, a above average day is 20 miles, so I would be thrilled with a 40 mile range!
Electricity is cheaper than gas for most electric vehicles, even with higher priced wind power!
8.500 USD extra for a car being hybrid is really quite a bit. And way too much for most consumers. America doesn't like taxes but in Europe they could certaimly help hybrids becoming mainstream by reducing taxes by the same cost so a hybrid would cost the same (or cheaper) than a normal car.
not only expensive to buy but wicked expensive to repair and maintain. Can't just take this bad boy to the dealer or your neighborhood mechanic.
Didn't some high school students build an ultracap/lithium/vw jetta diesel engine tribrid sportscar last year (or was it 06)? Didn't it have killer performance, and didn't it cost them around 80 grand to do it from scratch?
Once again, I am waiting for my EV with built in solar panels for recharging when parked. It isn't rocket science, people.
Didn't some high school students build an ultracap/lithium/vw jetta diesel engine tribrid sportscar last year (or was it 06)? Didn't it have killer performance, and didn't it cost them around 80 grand to do it from scratch?
Once again, I am waiting for my EV with built in solar panels for recharging when parked. It isn't rocket science, people.
This is all superb news. The future is green people. And yes, the costs for things like this in 10/15 years will be a virtual non-issue.
The $8,500 is not just for it being a regular hybrid.
This is a PLUG-IN hybrid, with a 40 mile range as an EV only, so typical daily commutes uses no gas, so it saves money.
This story is not real clear here: read the NYT or green car congress version.
I don't think it's as messy or complicated as some folks are imagining. A capacitor in this system might be thought of as another battery... a bigger one that provides more juice to the powertrain under acceleration etc. Like the flash power system for a camera. You have the rechargeables to run the camera and the focus, etc... then the capacitor with its stored energy when the flash is needed. So you're tooling along at 20 mph, then, you need to get to 50-60 to get on the highway and the capacitor lets loose with the juice when you hit the pedal.
Or... I could be wrong.
vsk
Tri-brid is totally spammable....BRILLIANT!
Why do hybrids, and the new tri-brid, have to even compete against the now almost certainly defunct petrol driven vehicles?
It is pure rort and about time Anarchy was threatened if this junk keeps up.
CNN had a story on this last week. Of course, the stupid anchorwoman asked idiotic questions as the field reporter gave questionable answers.
The worst comment from the field reporter was: "the draw back is that you have to plug it in every night." Which prompted me to write an e-mail to CNN questioning their "drawback" comment.
These companies must emphasize to the media that when cars are not plugged in, they run like "normal" cars. And they have to tell the reporter "repeat after me - you do not have to plug it". Repeat it 20 times...
The CNN video can be seen at the following link.
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/tech/2008/01/11/hunter.extreme.hybrid.cnn
I agree the "head and torso" behind the desk did ask dumb questions where us Treehuggers are concerned but those who don't' understand the benefits of plug-in hybrid technology will likely need some education of WHY it is better to have to plug your car in every night.
Heck, phones worked off the voltage coming down the telephone wire....why do I have to plug in this little phone I can carry around with me every night? People got used to cell phones and charging them, they'll get used to plug-in hybrid too.
My full comment will pop up whenever it clears the spam filter in spite of my being redirected back to this page following my typekey login. Sigh.
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/tech/2008/01/11/hunter.extreme.hybrid.cnn
There's the link to the CNN video. You'll likely have to watch a commercial to view the content but it's not painful.
The analogy to a wine bottle (small neck) and a peanut butter jar (wide neck) is good, but the other thing you need to remember to complete the analogy is that the peanut butter jar is very shallow and does not hold very much, while the wine bottle is more of a wine cask with a vary small tap.
Charging time when plugged in is not the time to fill the peanut butter jar, it is the time to refill the wine cask.
The peanut butter jar gets refilled by dynamic braking, by slow charging from the wine cask, etc. but it does not hold very much at all. It is there to handle peak loads (and peak recharges like dynamic braking) rather than as a long term source. Even the toilet tank analogy is weak in this regard unless you factor in that the "water" used in driving the 40 miles is the equivalent of tens of thousands of toilet flushes.
The economy in the conventional battery pack is not that it can be a lot (if any) lower in storage capacity but that it does not have to use expensive technology, often involving toxic materials, in order to deliver the peak load current for acceleration and hill climbing.
Plug-in electric cars are a great idea....if you can produce your own electricity. It never ceases to amaze me how people eat up the latest gimmick just because some magazine article endorses it or George Clooney drives it. Most of your power lines nowadays are aluminum, resulting in almost half of your electricity due to the resistance of the conductor. Now charge your electric car and have even more loss due to the transformation of the current to DC to charge your car batteries. You might as well drive your next door neighbors Land Rover with a camp trailer behind it. It would be about as efficient as your electric car using electricity from your power plant. Now if you had your own fuel cell that would run off of ethanol to charge your electric car, heat your house, and create enough electricity for your needs, it would be a good idea. Or you could just ride your bike..........
Zach, you're incorrect. Power lines, while mostly aluminum, by no means lose 50% of their power.
Copper is not magic compared with Aluminum. It mearly takes more Al, like switching to the next gauge.
The 90% efficiency of an electric system compared to the 30%(if you're lucky) of a gasoline engine more than makes up for transmission and transformation losses.
An AC-DC converter of the size for an electric car can be quite efficient.
If nothing else, even a coal plant has better emission controls for the energy needed to travel a mile than traditional gasoline.
I'd love to ride my bike, but 30 miles in -35 wind chill just isn't happening.
The person who is waiting for an EV with Solar Power charging on board need wait no more!
The Zebra Truck comes with a panel over the hauling part of the truck. About $16,000 (if i remember right) and will save a lot of gas expense. Local EV folks got Motorcycle insurance for theirs, since the Zebra is a compact 3-wheeler. It's also dang cute. Some states have Tax Credits for EVs, Hybrids and EV Conversions for a $1,500 to a couple thousand bucks savings.
Others add a solar panel & trickle charger to their own conversion EVs. You get to choose the car. Conversions are very inexpensive Get help at: http://www.eaaev.org/
A more efficient and cost effective renewable energy system is needed.
A more efficient and cost effective renewable energy system is needed.
To accelerate the implementation of renewable electric generation with added incentives and a FASTER PAYBACK - ROI. (A method of storing energy, would accelerate the use of renewable energy) A greater tax credit, accelerated depreciation, funding scientific research and pay as you save utility billing. (Reduce and or eliminates the tax on implementing energy efficiency, eliminate increase in Real estate Taxes for energy efficiency improvement).
In California, you also have the impediment, that when there are an interruption of power supply by the Utility you the consumer cannot use your renewable energy system to provide power.
In today's technology there is automatic switching equipment that would disconnect the consumer from the grid, which would permit renewable generation for the consumer even during power interruption. Energy storage technology must advance substantially. “Energy conservation through energy storage”.
New competition for the world's limited oil and natural gas supplies is increasing global demand like never before. Reserves are dwindling. These and other factors are forcing energy prices to skyrocket here at home. It's affecting not just the fuel for our cars and homes, but it's driving up electricity costs, too. A new world is emerging. The energy decisions our nation makes today will have huge implications into the next century.
A synchronous system with batteries allows the blending of a PV with grid power, but also offers the advantage of “islanding” in case of a power failure. A synchronous system automatically disconnects the utility power from the house and operates like an off-grid home during power failures. This system, however, is more costly and loses some of the efficiency advantages of a battery-less system.
We’re surrounded by energy — sun, wind, water. The problem is harnessing it in an economical way.
Jay Draiman, Northridge, CA
May 29, 2008