Quote of the Day: Paul Roberts on Gas Guzzlers

It still bothers me that a lot of environmentally conscious authors and subject matter experts take aim at SUVs as a whole without doing much research. At this point lumping all SUVs together and complaining that they are all gas guzzlers is starting to sound like lame rhetoric. If you want to encourage people to buy more gas conscious cars, point out specific gas guzzlers to be avoided and show people the EPAs fuel efficiency figures.

If you're an American car buyer (buying American can save jobs here, help our economy, etc), there are SUV options that have better fuel economy than mid-sized cars and minivans. The 2007 Ford Escape (4-cyl FWD) gets 21/27 while the 2007 Ford Taurus only gets 18/25, and the 2007 Freestar gets 16/22. So many Minivans have horrible fuel economy and are as big if not bigger than small and mid-sized SUVs but they're not being vilified by anyone.

How about all of the people who opt for the AWD, 6-cyl, or 8-cyl models of a vehicle that has a fuel efficient 4-cyl FWD counterpart? Why aren't there more conversations about those buyers and what causes them to step over a more fuel conscious choice? Why aren't we discussing people who continue to drive smoke coughing gas chugging vehicles that are 10 or more years old when they can afford moving into a new fuel efficient vehicle?

A very small vehicle does not suit everyone's lifestyle. I'm sure that a lot of SUV drivers out there actually use their vehicles to haul plenty of people and plenty of loads. Unless you have the privilege of living in a multi-car household, the tendency is to purchase a vehicle that can do most of the work you need it to do. That doesn't necessarily translate into purchasing a truck or SUV, but it will still keep people from purchasing a very small vehicle.

These sweeping generalizations about SUVs aren't helping people make informed choices about new vehicles. Just because you're not driving an SUV does not make your vehicle any more gas efficient than dozens of small, mid-sized, and hybrid SUVs out there. People need to learn to be smarter shoppers and do more research. We also need to put pressure on our auto makers to work towards plug-in hybrids and electric vehicles and keeping them affordable for the average person. No matter how great and fuel efficient the vehicle is, if it's much more expensive than the competition, it will miss its mark with consumers.

I have a shirt that says 'F*** You And Your SUV'

How appropriate a shirt it is.

u, with the long comment- be quiet.

suv's SUCK. enough said.

A very small vehicle does not suit everyone's lifestyle.

Oh no! Not their lifestyle! Better trash the planet -- my insecurity-driven fashion choices are threatened!

The point is that ALL SUV's are unnecessary for most of the people that drive them (I'm aware that all and most don't go together, but it's late). Forget the convenient "that car gets worse mileage" stats. Few people need SUV's, but tons of people have them.

That's what's disturbing and what the point is.

Besides, those horrible gas mileage cars are in the same boat as SUV's anyway. Who the hell needs to haul six people? A Taurus getting worse mileage than an SUV does not prove anything good about SUV's -- only that the Taurus is a gas-hog piece of crap.

And speaking of "rhetoric", what's with all the @#$%ing SUV defending on here these days? That's an annoying rhetoric.

Ok, I admit it, too. (right hand up)

I don't drive an SUV, I drive an even heavier, less practical VW 'Eurovan Camper (that my wife and I have lived in for months), and NOBODY has ever commented on the grotesque size and 2500 kg weight. However a few people badmouthed our 4 cyl 1986 4 Runner which we thrashed on logging roads & she bought before the term SUV was invented.
The amusing point of this is both these vehicles get 25 mpg, about the US CAFE standard for automobiles in 2007. 10 l per 100 km is not exactly 'state of the art' (the model 'T' and the VW bug were similar).

The problem isn't SUV's, it's plain ignorance ie the auto makers don't supply this info, and surveys imply most peole just don't care. In the UK now cars have big "x g CO2 per km!" labels. I don't even know what it means.

Great level-headed response, Elise. :)

I'm no friend of the auto-makers, but I don't think it's fair to blame them entirely. If people who wanted status/ego-boosts started driving normal cars (or better, bikes!), that's what they would make. Imagine a Ford cruiser bike for running errands... :^)

(But you're right that they certainly don't provide us with much information about what they sell us.)

I didn't mean to imply what I think I did about all people who drive SUVs. I have friends with SUVs:)

the amusing point of this is both these vehicles get 25 mpg, about the US CAFE standard for automobiles in 2007.

The '86 4 Runner with a 4 cylinder engine is rated between 18 and 19 mpg, not 25 mpg. Eurovan Campers are rated between 14 and 16 mpg, not 25 mpg. The CAFE standard for automobiles is 27.5 mpg -- 49% higher than your 4 Runner and 83% higher than your Eurovan Camper.

They are not "about the same."

In the UK now cars have big "x g CO2 per km!" labels. I don't even know what it means.

Why is that hard to understand?

I have and use as designed two of your quote gas guzzlers.My business Requires towing ability and people room.

The first is a ford excursion diesel 4x4.It gets filled with bio-diesel.This vehicle has the people room.Seating 6 full sized adults comfortably.With a decent towing capacity.

The second is a ford diesel crew cab long box 4x4.Also filled with bio-diesel.This unit hauls a goose neck flatbed.It can haul and handle up to 45,000 pounds.

I use the vehicles as designed for.No other options are viable for my needs.Just because yuppies drive them now.They are evil.If you use them as designed for.Good for you.If not oh well.

I use the vehicles as designed for.No other options are viable for my needs.Just because yuppies drive them now.They are evil.

The latter use makes up 95% of the use. Applications like yours are relatively rare.

(I'm going to use "SUV" to represent low efficiency vehicles, don't be offended)

I wonder what the emissions/fuel efficiency difference is between five or six families driving their kids to soccer practice in separate cars and one parent driving the five or six kids in an SUV. I guess that perhaps the non-communal activities that the vehicles were used for would offset the savings at some point.

I just bought a Honda Fit and I can tell you the response was mixed. Many of my male friends thought I should have gotten a more "manly" vehicle (most suggestions were SUVs or sports cars). When it comes to people's priorities on cars, efficiency and emissions are not very high on the list.

I use the vehicles as designed for.No other options are viable for my needs.Just because yuppies drive them now.They are evil.

"The latter use makes up 95% of the use. Applications like yours are relatively rare."

Well said. And once again, THAT is the point with SUVs. No one anywhere is actually saying that the people who need them should not be able to get them.

Brian? Jack? Was that you?

Ron

You are correct.It is jack.Brian will be home shortly.Minus a spleen/50 % of one lung/One kidney and two fingers.The only reason i posted anonymously is i am tired of fighting.

When Brian left i took over the family business.People should evaluate their requirements in a vehicle.Not their wants.But many times it comes down to what you can afford.

I won't fight with you. I'm very very sorry to hear about your brother. Very sorry.

Caveat emptor.

Ron

You should not be sorry.You did not make the device or employ it.The one who is sorry caught a sniper round.Hope he enjoys his 72 virgins.And was carrying Iran id and weapons.

I'm still sorry it happened.

As is usually true, the people who make the most ignorant comments do so Anonymously. To the coward who left the following comment:

"Oh no! Not their lifestyle! Better trash the planet -- my insecurity-driven fashion choices are threatened!"

The cars I choose are not a fashion accessory. I don't have the money to buy, nor would I buy, one of these monstrous or luxury SUVs. I buy a car big enough to fit the things I need to do my hobbies and to go to work when I am not working from home (which is not often). I buy a car based on whether or not it will fit my family/friends and pets and all of their accessories if need be. I bought a vehicle which allows me to bring large items home when I need to. I also bought myself a vehicle that would allow me to drive through some of the floods and mayhem after Florida got pelted with all those hurricanes a few years ago (I was there for all of them).

If you don't have to haul people and equipment, have a family, have pets (small or large doesn't matter because they all have to travel with a lot of stuff), or have aging parents who also come with a lot of baggage (and by baggage I sometimes mean medical equipment), you wouldn't understand.

If you're just going to drive yourself back and forth of course you wouldn't see my point, but your need to grab attention with an ill thought out response is just sad. Have you thought that using a small car on a long daily commute five days a week is more detrimental than eliminating your commute or minimizing it by teleworking? You, and so many zealots like you, are ready to criminalize people without knowing their driving habits or how they live their life and it's sad. Don't get me wrong I understand where your anger is coming from and it pisses me off to see someone speeding in their empty Expedition too. The problem is that you're lumping people together unnecessarily. People should be smart enough to buy a vehicle that suits their needs, not a vehicle that exceeds their needs.

The only thing that kept me from purchasing the hybrid model of my vehicle was the extra 5 grand on the price tag. If the manufacturer's were turning out more hybrids the prices would fall and a lot more people would move in that direction. This will change in time of course, but it would be nice if the American auto makers would stop pledging their allegiance to the gas/oil industry and take a serious stab at plug-in hybrids, electric cars, and alternative fuels (other than ethanol).

How about you channel some of your zeal into campaigning for change instead of sitting around and complaining when you could be doing something? No matter how green you think you are, there's always someone who's greener.

I don't mean to quote anyone to be ignorant or rude. You just summed up what I mean to say:

"You, and so many zealots like you, are ready to criminalize people without knowing their driving habits or how they live their life and it's sad."

Maybe Anon's point is that a lot of people use that as an explanation for owning SUVs and the like. If we are to be tree-huggers and really try to save the planet, we have to change our driving habits, the large items we sometimes bring home, our hobbies, etc. I am seriously not taking aim at you without knowing anything about you, and older parents are certainly not something to be done away with. If my parents were at a point in their lives where they had to be transported by me, I might own a car, too.

And I don't mean to "criminalize" anyone, no matter what they drive. My bike is, after all, made of metal mined from the earth, rubber from trees and is imported (to to mention whatever is in the Slime tire sealer and the vinyl coating on my Kryptonite lock and who-knows what else). It's not like there is a zero carbon footprint for a non-recycled bike like I ride.

But we can't just do the things we always used to do if we expect to slow or reverse the damage we have done and are doing to the planet. Of course, in the case of aging family members, certain professions, etc., we don't really get a choice. But we do get to decide how we spend our leisure time, what we buy, etc. I mean all of us, not Elise, who I only mention for a good quotation and the caveat that we really don't always get a choice. And because this is really really really true:

"No matter how green you think you are, there's always someone who's greener."

[I hope that didn't come off as preachy. I really don't mean to be such.]

There seem to be a lot variables over-looked here.

"SUV" is maybe to broad a term. Does a Cadillac Escalade or Hummer H2 really belong in the same class as a Honda Pilot or a Toyota RAV4?

Just because you don't take your SUV off-road doesn't mean that the extra space isn't necessary. I drive within about 400 mile radius for work, usually taking quite of bit of computer equipment, tools, and luggage.

No one seems to have thought of people with limited mobility. Granted, repelling down from a Navigator isn't great if you need a wheel-chair. But my mother-in-law litteraly COULD NOT get in and out our Honda Civic, due to leg and lung problems. My family doesn't have to carry around a wheel chair or scooter, but some people do.

To quote Johnny above: "If we are to be tree-huggers and really try to save the planet, we have to change our driving habits."

I think that's a fair point. Far more fair that Ron's comment of "SUV defending... [is] ... annoying rhetoric," or the oh-so-brilliant "suv's SUCK" by thespyofCharles. All though "be quiet" (ibid) is frighteningly close to "all dissenting opinion should be silenced."

If you've read this far and said, "Hey, does this guy even have a POINT?!?" No. I don't have a point. I just like high-lighting over-looked or under-emphasized data.

-James

"'SUV' is maybe too broad a term. Does a Cadillac Escalade or Hummer H2 really belong in the same class as a Honda Pilot or a Toyota RAV4?"

Good point :) Some large cars and sports cars are worse, environmentally speaking (not morally, of course), than some small SUVs. I usually mean the large ones when I use the term, but I realize that it's unclear to say it that way.

I'm sure that a lot of SUV drivers out there actually use their vehicles to haul plenty of people and plenty of loads.

Well, you're wrong. At the very most, 5% of the time trucks, SUVs, and vans are being used for things that other vehicles probably can't do effectively. This is a fact, not a guess.

Have you thought that using a small car on a long daily commute five days a week is more detrimental than eliminating your commute or minimizing it by teleworking?

God, no, I didn't. I just got a lobotomy and unable to understand the obvious, so thanks for pointing that out.

You, and so many zealots like you, are ready to criminalize people without knowing their driving habits or how they live their life and it's sad.

First, the irony of that comment is choice. You don't know anything about me besides one snakry response to one of your foolish comments, yet you've concluded I am a "zealot" and wish to "criminalize people" for their choice of vehicle. That degree of paranoia speaks volumes about your mindset, and it really makes me wonder why you would come to this website other than to bash people and their values with silly strawmen.

Don't get me wrong I understand where your anger

What anger? I'm laughing. The comment about people's "lifestyles" was so shallow that it was worthy of a snarky response. I could care less about what people drive, but I think their rationalizations for their choices are sad. Of course some people need the functions of one of these beasts, but the notion of a "lifestyle" being more important than the web of life is so out there that I don't think there's a rational response to it. Are we all Paris Hilton now or something?

The only thing that kept me from purchasing the hybrid model of my vehicle was the extra 5 grand on the price tag.

The premium for a hybrid is at most $4K, less an often very large tax credit. For some vehicles, like the Ford Escape, the net premium is about 1 grand, not 5. It was similar for the Prius, but the tax credit got reduced since it sells so well.

How about you channel some of your zeal into campaigning for change instead of sitting around and complaining when you could be doing something?

Why don't you stop taking blind stabs in the dark with prejudicial comments that have relationship with reality?

No matter how green you think you are, there's always someone who's greener.

Non sequitur and obvious.

Anonymous, you are right on some points. But if you're going to call someone foolish, spell check your comment, dude. You're making us look bad.

Anonymous, you are right on some points. But if you're going to call someone foolish, spell check your comment, dude. You're making us look bad.

Thanks, Ron! There must be one or two typos in that. Thanks for paying such close attention.

Did I tell you my brother is in Iraq and he got hit by an RPG?

Wow, that's funny to joke about.

Wow, that's funny to joke about.

Why would you say that? It happened.

How heartless of you.

The Anonymous poster again went out of his way to throw around a bunch of unsubstantiated claims in defense of himself. I took some time to debunk some of of that.

Well, you're wrong. At the very most, 5% of the time trucks, SUVs, and vans are being used for things that other vehicles probably can't do effectively. This is a fact, not a guess.

If it is a fact link your data. Where are the statistics? I'm not assuming that you're wrong, but I want links to your information. It is very easy to throw out statistics, but they may not be relevant and without sources your readers cannot investigate the claims for themselves.

I use my vehicle the way it was intended, and seeing as it is a small SUV, it was not intended to go off road. I have moved 7 times in 10 years, and between moving and the regular hauling of people and equipment, it has been invaluable. Two trips in a small SUV over a couple of miles when moving is likely cleaner and safer than a 10 year old UHaul rental with a 10-cyl engine that hasn't had maintenance in months.

God, no, I didn't. I just got a lobotomy and unable to understand the obvious, so thanks for pointing that out.

If you know so much, post something useful. Help people making informed choices by sharing information that can help them. Posting "snakry" comments (I am not pointing out the misspelling, I just typed it as it was originally typed for accuracy) comments isn't helping anyone. I actually posted information about different vehicles that someone might use as food for thought when they talk to their friend who is looking for a new car or if they're looking for a new vehicle themselves.

That degree of paranoia speaks volumes about your mindset, and it really makes me wonder why you would come to this website other than to bash people and their values with silly strawmen.

There is absolutely no paranoia here. I don't come here to bash people, and I agree with the vast majority of things that get posted on Treehugger. I think it's a great site and it is very informative, but when I don't entirely agree with something that's being said I feel obliged to post about it. I agree with everyone's frustration with SUVs, but the problem is that people are not informed and not taking the time out to see that SUVs are not the only culprit. The SUV, regardless of size, is being used as the scapegoat when there is a much bigger problem (which is not being caused by the little Escapes and Rav 4s). Just because someone has a Prius doesn't mean they put less greenhouse gasses in the air than anyone with a larger vehicle. That is what I intended to point out with my post. People think that they are being conscientious by buying vehicles that are not SUVs that have poor fuel efficiency ratings. My whole point is that just because a vehicle is not an SUV doesn't make it better than one. I didn't bash anyone in my first post at all. You took it upon yourself to bash my choices and the language I used in my post.

The comment about people's "lifestyles" was so shallow that it was worthy of a snarky response. I could care less about what people drive, but I think their rationalizations for their choices are sad. Of course some people need the functions of one of these beasts, but the notion of a "lifestyle" being more important than the web of life is so out there that I don't think there's a rational response to it. Are we all Paris Hilton now or something?

For someone who is so informed, you're obviously ignorant of the meaning and connotation of the word lifestyle. A lifestyle is simply stated how someone lives their life including their culture, religion, education and social choices. My lifestyle includes a 95% vegetarian diet, freecycling, recycling, donating, working for charity, continuously seeking higher education, and trying to minimize my impact on the environment. Just because our media has repeatedly linked the word lifestyle to the upper financial echelon here and around the world, does not warrant comparing me and those who agreed with points in my post to the likes of Paris Hilton or the rich wastrels in our society. I resent the comparison, but it says a lot about how you have let the language used by big media in this country influence your thought process. Everyone has a lifestyle whether it be simple, complex, poor, or affluent. You spend a lot of time judging me and other people, but you complain about it when it's done to you.

The premium for a hybrid is at most $4K, less an often very large tax credit. For some vehicles, like the Ford Escape, the net premium is about 1 grand, not 5. It was similar for the Prius, but the tax credit got reduced since it sells so well.

Here again you make an unsubstantiated claim. The numbers you come up with are fictitious at best. Just to put some real facts on the table I have here the prices for the 2008 Ford Escape and its Hybrid counterpart (from Fordvehicles.com):
2008 Ford Escape - MSRP $18,770
2008 Ford Escape Hybrid - MSRP $25,075

The $5,000 price tag difference I saw when I purchased my vehicle has ballooned into almost $7,000. I don't know where you got your figure of $1 grand, but the price difference between a 4-cyl FWD Escape and the Hybrid Escape has never as low as you describe. Furthermore, the tax credit does not help someone fit the monthly payment for a car into their budget. Just because there is a tax credit does not mean I could afford another 150-250 dollars worth of monthly car payments associated with a $5,000-7,000 higher price tag. The way to bring the cost of these vehicles down is to pressure the automakers which I believe I said before.

Why don't you stop taking blind stabs in the dark with prejudicial comments that have relationship with reality?

The first prejudicial claim in this thread started with the daggers you threw at my use of the word lifestyle. There was nothing of the sort before your post so you should stop pointing fingers and take a good long look at your initial response.

I see your response to all the ridiculous claims you made prior to this is just to exponentially increase them, along with more of the usual petty insults (like harping on obvious typos).

If you're dumb enough to compare a manual transmission bare-bones model with a CVT transmission and high-trim and consider them comparable, you are clearly ill-equipped to follow the numbers about usage percentages with respect to SUVs, trucks and vans. You certainly don't have enough wattage to stop confusing your personal situation (the anecdotal) with the global averages. You may or may not utilize your vehicle to its potential, and might not do well with a more fuel-efficient vehicle, but since you could make any claim you want, there's no way to verify any of it. Also, it's a chicken or egg thing anyway - got the truck so I can haul the boat which I got because I got a big truck.

All your other insults and jibberjabber aren't even worth a second more attention.

Good luck to you.

If you're dumb enough to compare a manual transmission bare-bones model with a CVT transmission and high-trim and consider them comparable, you are clearly ill-equipped to follow the numbers about usage percentages with respect to SUVs, trucks and vans. You certainly don't have enough wattage to stop confusing your personal situation (the anecdotal) with the global averages. You may or may not utilize your vehicle to its potential, and might not do well with a more fuel-efficient vehicle, but since you could make any claim you want, there's no way to verify any of it. Also, it's a chicken or egg thing anyway - got the truck so I can haul the boat which I got because I got a big truck.

Fair enough.. the manual model is $18,770, but the 4-cyl model is $19,770. That's a mere $1000 difference and still proves that there is a substantive price gap between the typical entry-level model and the most basic hybrid model. You throw out numbers that make no sense just to support a weakly formed argument.

I am plenty knowledgeable enough to know that I am speaking for myself and have been since the beginning. I didn't bring up national averages, and I didn't compare myself to these averages you speak about so often. You, like a lot of people including some of the authors and SMEs out there, are trying to fit everyone into one mold and it does not work. This is, again, part of my point from the beginning. You also refuse to put forth any real numbers, proof, statistics, or information to support the things you say. My argument from the beginning has been that we need to inform people about more than just one aspect of the problem. You aren't doing anything for the readership of this blog by being snarky, sarcastic, and failing to explain your rationale for anything.

My comments are not jibberjabber if they cause even one person to rethink their choices or more importantly their overall use of a vehicle.

Still comparing basic trim to a vehicle loaded with options, eh? Real financial wizard you are.

As for your other comments (which are really skim-worthy at best), I would point out that you're not as speical as you think you are, and you would do yourself a service to stop mischaracterizing others while simultaneously stroking yourself about how misjudged you are.

I have nothing else to say to you.

Hey - find the typo I left for you. I know that's important for you.

I guess you do have nothing left to say to her when you won't even read what she wrote, which would be only fair if you are trying to have a genuine debate. But I think that's not what you want. I think you just like to bitch.

(I'm fully aware that I'm bitching about your bitching.)