Survey: Hummers or Hikers?

While trash is bad, yes, I'm less concerned with it as I am with habitat destruction. The real danger that I see is from ever widening trails. In the Adirondacks (the largest state park in the contiguous 48 states), some trails have expanded to over 100 feet wide, and 4 feet deep.

Sheer numbers (of people, bikes, horses, and mechines) trample all vegetation along the trails. The spring thaw then washes more and more soil away leaving behind rocks. People then don't want to hike, bike, hide, or drive on the rocks so they keep expanding and expanding the trails.

I really don't know what the answer is. "people and forests don't mix" certainly is not the answer. Unless you visit, smell, hear, and see a forest, how can you have any love to protect it? People are increasingly more detached from nature, and a good hike it so important to re-familiarize oneself.

I appreciate you quoting me, but the survey is definitely flawed. I personally do not ride ATVs or do any 4x4 driving. I even have to take steps to deal with ATV riders who come into reservations which are designated for foot/bike/horse traffic only.

But when I see "naturalists" and "environmental groups" coming down on ATV and 4x4 without any scientific facts or studies to back them up, I must take the ATV/4x4 side. This is because, of the many activities I do enjoy in the woods, mountain biking is one. In the early 90's, MTB experienced a rash of bans due to individuals and groups who simply didn't like them, and didn't like anyone else using what they considered to be "their" trails. They had all sorts of poppycock reason like "MTB riders crush salamanders during migration". It took a good 5-8 years of organizing and fighting, but ultimately 9 out of 10 bans were lifted and no new ones placed into effect in my region and state. We're talking about bicycles here folks.

Now we have state parks which are on the verge of being deactivated (no staff) due to low visitorship contacting NEMBA to create a trail network and bring in MTB riders from all over. It has worked with amazing results.

I also still stand by my quote. The users which bring in and leave the most garbage on the trails are on foot. I'll take an annoying 4x4 mud-hole over a pile of Gatorade bottles and food wrappers any time, not to mention the empty crack viles.

This survey doesn't have a good middle ground. I'm a backpacker and mountain biker. On a few occasions I have been on an ATV or in an offroad vehicle. I think there should be places set aside for both activities. I have seen some of the trash brought in by "hikers" although I have also seen the garbage left behind after the snow melts off snowmobile trails. There are people in every situation that are careless, and some of the garbage is accidental. So enjoy the enviroment in areas where it's allowed, and try to get your own trash as well as some of what you find laying on the ground. After all you may not realize it but that candy bar rapper you stuffed in your pocket fell back out 3 miles ago.

I am an avid off road camper.With a custom teardrop trailer.

But i did not see an answer that was correct for the survey.

I only go in by jeep and park.There on.I hoof it.Once base camp is set.I drive no further.Responsible off roading should be allowed everywhere.It is the the one lone idiot that screws it up.For everybody.

I don't do any sports ridiing thru the wilderness, however i see nothing wrong with it. As long as it's done responsibly, it can actually help the environment, if it raises awareness about the habitats and how not to destroy them.
I SCUBA dive and befoer you can get certified you have to make a pledge to protect underwater ecosystems, when you're above or below the surface, it'd be cool if something similar existed for outdoor sports riders.

I personally have no problem with MTB activities, as long as the participants are polite and respectful—which they usually are. As far as 4x4's go, however, this post makes an inappropriate comparison: first you read about "foot traffic … bringing in picnics, bottles, cans, etc... and just tossing them." Then you see a mention of "responsible 4X4." Please compare apples (good or bad) to apples, not oranges.

The reality is that I would prefer to keep irresponsible people—regardless of their mode of transportation—out of these places.

What about backpackers? Responsible backpackers pack their garbage out. I could compare this to irresponsible 4X4 drivers ignoring trails and tearing across meadows and other habitat. Certainly people would cry fowl, because it's an unfair comparison.

Much like hunters, offroaders can be beneficial in that they support parks and 'natural' areas.

However, i think they need to follow courtesy guidelines about garbage, oil leaks, and not cutting new trails or widening existing ones. Unfortunately persons who participate in such a sport are unlikely to have much of a conscience.

There are two issues here; trash and trail damage. I think both hikers and atv/snowmobile riders leave garbage but in my personal experience people out in the woods on a gas powered machine are less careful with the environment. I've never seen a hiker throw a beer bottle over his shoulder while walking through the woods but I have seen a few ATV drivers do it. I don't know why the author assumes that people having a vehicle are more likely to take their trash back than people walking. As far as trail destruction goes, while hikers may cause the majority of trail erosion, it is because large groups of them hike the trails over a period of time. One ATV can do the damage of a number of people in a much shorter time and I have seen 4x4s ruin trails and make logging and farm roads impassable.

While a few hummer owners might use biofuel, my veggie wrap powered legs are probably more environmentally responsible.

Brenton,
I'm calling you on the 100 foot wide trail. Name it. I know the adirondacks well. Yes, many trails there are in desperate shape from overuse, but I think you got an extra zero on that number.

I think if Atvs are very loud and should have catalytic converters or something to cut their pollution back. As for littering, I agree with Brennan about ATV driers are probably more likely to litter than hikers. We need green Atvs. Hikers are much more environmentally friendly that petroleum powered vehicles and certainly 100 responsible hikers will do less damage to an ecosystem than 100 responsible Hummers even if bio diesel powered. And that is just because of the weigh difference of ie 150 lbs walking ina field than an 8400 lbs hummer. Unless your disabled or incredibly old or something like that stick to hiking, or get an electric dirt bike or bio fueled atv etc

ATVs and other small bikes don't seem to need much range. I'm sure some people love the noise as part of the experience, but why not build ones with high-torque electric motors? Quiet and efficient. If they stick to places with wide trails approved for their use and respect the land around it, I see little problem with it.

Josh,

I can't name the trail. And yes, I may be hyperbolizing. I really don't know. I'm recalling what I read on a display shown in the Blue Mountain Adirondack Museum that I visited again this summer. Look for the display where they start out with "Is the Adirondack Reserve Too
Successful?"

100 feet wouldn't suprise me though. This year hiking up to Rocky Point, I noticed that the tail was well over 30 feet wide in parts. Having made the hike yearly over the last 22 years, I've watched it expand, and have always made it a point to walk the original trail.

Josh,

I can't name the trail. And yes, I may be hyperbolizing. I really don't know. I'm recalling what I read on a display shown in the Blue Mountain Adirondack Museum that I visited again this summer. Look for the display where they start out with "Is the Adirondack Reserve Too Successful?"

100 feet wouldn't suprise me though. This year hiking up to Rocky Point, I noticed that the tail was well over 30 feet wide in parts. Having made the hike yearly over the last 22 years, I've watched it expand, and have always made it a point to walk the original trail.

Josh,

I can't name the trail. And yes, I may be hyperbolizing. I really don't know. I'm recalling what I read on a display shown in the Blue Mountain Adirondack Museum that I visited again this summer. Look for the display where they start out with "Is the Adirondack Reserve Too
Successful?"

100 feet wouldn't suprise me though. This year hiking up to Rocky Point, I noticed that the tail was well over 30 feet wide in parts. Having made the hike yearly over the last 22 years, I've watched it expand, and have always made it a point to walk the original trail.

I always consider hiking other than many ways of exploring mountains. Hiking for me is more than just physical activity and enjoying the journey. It is a way for me to communicate with nature.

Mountains has life too and must be respected. Our distinct descipline is required to keep the happy mountain lively and beautiful.

As hikers we should always follow this simple rule everytime we climb mountains: "Leave no trace."

Usually most of the reason why you guys have an overall biased judgment against dirtbikes, atvs, 4x4's, snomobiles, and MTB's, is usually because of a few people who dont take the extra time to pick up their trash. There are some nice local riding areas where I live, and i've rarely seen anytrash, and there are trashcans provided everywhere. The trails are monitored and kept up. Don't try to be biased and think that we all are non environmentalists that dont care about the wildlife, and nature itself. Newspapers and some biased writers usually spoil all the fun for us, that and idiots who dont put on a spark arrester. And just to let you know, most motorcycles hardly pollute, and in california there is little knowledge to as why two-strokes are red sticker ed when they have better emissions that four-strokes.

Some treehuggers go over the line way to often and only want to protect something. There was one where these treehuggers were crying about how these one birds where living in an area and the area was in a off-road park. The finally got their way, and the park shut down. Only later did all the birds die and they were put down in shame for being so biased and just complete lunatics.

Talk about a slanted survey!

First of all, I have been responsibly hiking, canoeing riding snowmobiles, ATVs, Dirt Bikes and Mountain Bikes for more than 20 years. I always pack out MORE than I pack in.

In all of those years, I have seen a GRAND TOTAL of ONE HUMMER on the trails. The vast majority of the trails are not wide enough for a Hummer. The vast majority of the trails that ARE wide enough for a Hummer make the least-interesting hiking trails.

How much do any of you hikers and mountain bikers pay for annual registration to help support the forests and trail systems?

Since you don't pay any registration how many dollars and hours do you donate to the cause?

Your survey is flawed - how is one supposed to differentiate responses 2, 3 and 4? Because of this, and because you have attracted the ire of a certain online dirtbike forum (Thumpertalk), the results of your survey (published on an eco-friendly website) show that more people would prefer to allow motorized vehicles in forests than those opposed.

As an aside, the sort of polarization that underlies the assumptions evident in your survey only serves to drive the two communities apart (i.e. motorsport users versus people-powered users). Perhaps you should construct a survey that addresses the various ways in which the two groups can (or can't) work together.

- an environmentally conscious outdoor sports/recreation fanatic who also rides a dirtbike.

Wow.. Half of you people are generalizing Dirtbikers, and ATVers into a race. It is not the things themselves that do it, but the people who ride them.

I ride dirt bikes RESPONSIBLY and I love the forest and trees as much as anyone since they are what makes riding fun. BTW all the state and national forests in my state are eventually harvested by the lumber companies, so any impact from recreational activities pales in comparison. Let's all work together to keep our forests accessable for ALL recreational activities. There is plenty of room for everyone. A dirtbike with a LEGAL silencer cannot even be heard 1/4 mile away in a wooded area and I'm pretty sure horses leave way more behind than a dirtbike. :) Oh I have nothing against horses and my boy loves riding horses, but I prefer a motorcycle as they are much more predictable.

I am a hiker. I have heard of hikers complain about dirt bikes. There are some dirt bike trails located in high mountain areas that I hike. From what I can see, few of the dirt bikers can actually get up all of these trails. The ones that do actually stay on the trail which is only 6-8" wide.

Sure, they make noise but as soon as they're far out of site the noise usually goes away and I usually only find two or three groups each time I hike these multi-user trails. Now, when I want complete solitude I head out to wilderness areas and national parks where there isn't motorized recreation. I am so blessed to have three national parks within 100 miles of my house (Seattle).

On these multiple use trails I've been on with the motorized dirt bikers going past, I mostly find them to be relatively courteous as well. Most ride in groups and slowly idle their engines past me. They appear to understand that we all are enjoying the same trail.

This really doesn't seem like such an issue because most if not all of the "pristine" areas I go to already have sufficient land use protections that prevent motorized recreation. Nearly all of the areas I've seen motorized dirt bikes in are managed as working forests meaning they have been cut down numerous times already and will be again when the next timber sale is needed.

I think we hikers really should be more inclusive and accept that we have our designated wilderness, wilderness study areas, areas of critical environmental concern, and national parks where motorized dirt bikes are already excluded from.

I am a dirt biker as well as a conservationist. I ride responsibly and care greatly for the places I recreate in. Unfortunatley I have found that regardless of how much effort I put into proper stewardship of these lands, there will always be a group of extremists that seek nothing less than a total prohibition of anything but their own footprints in these areas.

why cant we all just get along ohv's hardly do anything, have you ever seen a cargo ship fuel or the pollution aircrafts produce yet all you want to do is bash on people that want to have fun just like you

Bret,
I appreciate your level-headed remarks. Thank you for your willingness to share trails with motorized users and having presence of mind to avoid these areas when you want solitude. Regards, Shannon

Maintain Trails
and riders will stay on them.

...and Mr. Tree and Ms. Fern like carbon dioxide.

Crazy Talk:
If you are going to burn fossil fuels and make CO2 at least do it for something useful; recreational use is wasteful and wrong.

I will elaborate:
“If you are going to burn fossil fuels and make CO2 at least do it for something useful”
In other words, the First World Nations have cleaned up their act so well, we need to pretend carbon dioxide is bad. Some people worship Elvis, some worship pagan art, and some worship Algore. Algore thanks you. - Please buy Carbon Offsets from Algore, Inc....
He is grooming his poodle;
He is living comfort eagle;
You can meet at his location;
But you better come with cash....

And, finally: “recreational use is wasteful and wrong”
Says who? A good ride on my dirt bike keeps me a polite member of society and paying taxes for social programs (for the children, you understand). I am having too much fun to start a revolution or attack and beat up the more radical environMentalist Sierra Club Members. Lastly, do we ban dirt bikes so developers can negotiate the sale of Public Land at the perimeter of National Forrests? All it takes is a few evil polititions greasing a few palms and Presto! Dirt bikes out and McMansions in! (Oh My!; Real housing wasts energy! We need twigs and buffalo dung)

Orange Inside joke: Yous gots to be kidding me; I was locked out for a Buel muffler faux pas? I hope not. The free flow of info in the name of quiet benefits all. Relax.

"...and Mr. Tree and Ms. Fern like carbon dioxide."

Amen!

Dirt bikers do more trail maintence than most on the trails here in my neck of the woods. The horses seem to do the most damage they push the trail down the hill. it eats the outside edge away.lots o weight little contact patch. but i like them none the less.lets use this earth togeather. atv technology is getting lots cleaner. not to start anything because i hike also, but in my 15 years of riding trails women hikers hate my bike the most. they march away from me not making eye contact,with hands on the ears . this has happend 3 time in 2 years. my bike is 93 db. under the legal limit. settle down everyone!!

While dirt bikers and ATV fanatics can brag online all they want about how nice they are on the trail they are generally rude, loud, polluting, smelly and personally obnoxious. For every rider that stays on the trail and does volunteer trial maintenance there are dozens that leave beer bottles, chip bags and shell casings scattered across the landscape. That is when they aren't chasing hikers and horsemen off the trail with their high speed antics.

The planet cannot afford motorized sports any longer, it's time they were phased out and shut down. Even to get to the trailhead requires that you use large trucks and trailers wasting far more fuel than hikers that can get there in a Geo Metro. It would be nice if the guy in my neighborhood who tows his rock crawler with his Hummer scrapped them both and got himself some nice hiking shoes.

Climate change is real and you don't have to believe in it; it believes in YOU. Ask the people of Atlanta or Australia how nice things are when the planet doesn't like you any more.

Matt,

You are an idiot! Motorized sports are here to stay. Hiking is not the only way to see the land. While you are hopping throught the forest all day you might see a fraction of what I did on my atv. As for the garbage, my riding group carries camelbacks and we eat before we ride. The carloads of rebel drinkers and drug users are the real offenders. People see what they want to. Stop blaming atv riders. If you are ever in Wv, check out the Hatfield-Mccoy trails. You will not find any garbage on our trails.

Pangolin,
I can appreciate your opinion.
There certainly are some dumb-ass Billy Bobs out there giving all motorized riders a bad name. Most of these dumb-asses do not know any better. Some are careless a-holes. These careless, littering, destructive-types need to be culled from the herd. – AND THEY HAVE BEEN AND CONTINUE TO BE – BY OUR OWN OFF-ROAD COMMINITY! (...and, for the record, I would never use the word “community” in actual speech)

Motorized Natural Selection:
A good dirtbike is high-maintenance and expensive.
Anyone who can afford one of these, and keep it running, has to have enough brains and leisure time to keep it working properly (meaning, they have to have a good job = trainable and reasonably intelligent). You can’t go on a big trail ride with a neglected P.O.S. –

Where you tend to find the dumb-asses is racing along road-sides; “parking lot racing” around the trail-head; or, worse yet, doing illegal hill-climbing where they can ruin the view for everyone. They are idiots. The quality dirtbikers hate them and would like to beat the shit out of them! The threat of additional “felonious assault” charges being added to their permanent record is the only thing restraining the good dirtbiker from attacking the bad dirtbiker.

The trail riders who get far into the back country are smarter, take care of their equipment, and do not want to ruin the fun for hikers or scare horses.

Now, everything I just wrote goes to hell when China dumps cheap dirtbikes and quad-cycles on the market. These P.O.S. motor vehicles will not last long enough to destroy too many trail-heads or shoulders of roads. – But, until they quit running, the trail-etiquette-ignorant percentage among the riders of these P.O.S. vehicles can piss-off a lot of recreationists.

IN OTHER WORDS:
All of the environmentalist’s spite & hate should be directed at the small percentage of dirtbikers who cause the problems.

What can environmentalists do, besides lobby for “pre-European conditions?”

With the enviro’s unlimited (George Soros) budget, they can get to the careless and make them stay on the trail. Start lobbying George Soros to contribute funds to create quality motorized trails and Public Service Announcements aimed at motor heads – telling them to help maintain the trails they ride.

Start propagandizing the little kiddies with “motorized trail etiquette” in the same way they’ve so successfully been propagandized (damn the passive tense!) with Algore’s doctrine of GW.......unless environmentalism is not about the environment, but about World Socialism, control and redistribution of wealth.

Think about this:

How about George Soros and Algore fund constructing a giant catalytic converter over a volcanic vent? Now, there’s some meaningful reduction in pollution.

Shifting precipitation patterns: Why doesn’t George Soros and Algore fund a website dedicated to an up-to-date satellite map showing where the giant noxious pollution plume from China is drifting?

Yes. I'm mad:
Leave my dirtbike alone and stop the “concentrate and eliminate” tactics.

The only problem with ATV's or any ohv is that they aren't legal on the highway. They get far better mileage than cars, and it makes sense to have a vehicle just barely large enough to carry one, maybe two people than a big 'ol car.

Well, there is a second problem with ATV's. Everyone isn't required to own one. If everyone was forced to own one then they wouldn't be talking crap about what they don't know squat about. Own an ATV for a year, then you can say whether or not they are as useless as you claim.

Coming from a landowner and powersport user. I have a few machines. I also have land that backs to a state/county trail. There are no motorized vehicles allowed on this trail. Horses, hikers, and bicycles are allowed. I pay the taxes on the trail since it was abandoned from the Railroads. It is maintained by tax revenue, and donations. I have had a few problems with horse people, and hikers casually strolling my land with the evil eye tward my use of my land(riding). At first i was going to donate to the trail, but when I heard the response about multi-use, I walked away with my checkbook in hand. I don't understand why people can't share our natural resources and stop hording it to themselves. Last I checked, all my registrations, insurance, fuel tax, county and state taxes, and such pay for this useful and wonderful trail. More of a burn was when I was told i couldn't ride an area that i had rode for 25 years!!!. The landowners died, and sold out to private development. I created/maintained that trail system for years, and to have snobby hikers try to educate me?
ATVers are another problem. They just don't understand what posted means. The newer 4X4's have torn and rutted up my trail system to the point of bringing in fill. People please tread lightly, and hikers take your garbage with you. Horse people, stay out, you have enough land and money to ride!!

Notice the common problem. A few screw it up for the rest of us!!!

THis poll is truely amazing for me to read. I am so happy to see that there is an overwhelming numeber of RESPONSIBLE riders that use vehicles to enjoy the outdoors.

I have been an outdoor enthusiast for nearly 25 years.

I love getting out of the city and into nature so much that I want to experience every bit of it that I can. I choose a modes of transportation that are a bit faster than walking or hiking. However every outing I go on, I find myself getting off my bike, dual sport enduro motorcycle, or 4x4 and taking the time to get close to nature and the beauty that God created for all humans to enjoy.

Getting lost in the scenery and absorbing the deafening silence is a special time that I can never seem to get enough.

Any responsible outdoor enthusiast knows to pack in what they pack out, but it takes more than that to be proactive. Out here in Southern California, the OHV enthusiast are faced with some of the harshest rules and regulations that the crazy left wingers could come up with. For pretty much no other reason then they dont like or appreciate the sport that keeps many economies above water. They closed down 90% of the Imperial Sand Dunes, forcing hundreds of thousands of OHV enthusiasts into several confined areas. This is extremely dangerous for this many riders to be crossing paths in a very tiny area. The fees have risen but know money has been put back into the parks or facilities. The amount of accidents has risen but there are know more 1st responders.

Thankfully the offroad industry is chalk full of organizations and volunteers that work hard to fight the liberals at the state and local levels. The offroad groups and clubs organize cleanups and raise funds to help educate those that access these areas irresponsibly.

This seems to be an on going battle. On one hand you have the "tree huggers". on the other you have the outdoor enthusiast. Both with different thoughts and ideas of what we should be doing with our national forest. I myself happen to be part of the "off-roaders". I belong to cal-4wheels. My club is the Bakersfield Trailblazers. Who's motto is "tread lightly". It's to bad that the handfull of people that are doing the damage aren't going to feel the long term effects. It's going to be the people who really enjoy using the forest and trails in a responsible manner. That's all I will say for now. This is a real touchy subject. I only hope that the responsible off-roaders prevale.

Hi Everybody!
I want to complement every one on the peaceful message board here. Thank you.
I'm a dirt biker, yes we make noise, dust, and poorly designed trails can erode, but all the damage all of us make is just a drop in the bucket compared to something like urban sprawl or just plain old nature.
I wish we could all get along, there are much bigger problems than the little bit of damage we cause in the woods. Starving people in poor countries, AIDS, industrial polution.
Thanks again, it's refreshing to find a group of nice people, discussing and listening.
Charlie

There are going to be problem people in every segment of society whether it be ohv users or hikers. My wife and I enjoy both. I always try to pack out more than I bring in. We pay our taxes and fees for our motorized vehicles.
People need to be taught what is acceptable, legal and responsible. Hikers and the Sierra Club need to learn that they have far more access to legal areas than ohv users and not be so quick to see legal areas for responsible ohv use closed down. Or see to it that new areas for legal ohv use never happen. People recreate in may ways. I don't like knitting but I don't get upset when I see someone doing it.
I seen a bumper sticker that read 'If its to loud your too old!' well I know very well that isn't the best way to live. But I don't think that Nascar fans are bad people even though one of those race cars are about ten times louder than all of my motorized vehicles combined. Nascar is very popular too.
We all need to compromise in some ways. Life is too short to be bummed out all the time people. Enjoy life!