Honda Bringing 62.8 MPG Diesel to the US by 2010
by Collin Dunn, Corvallis, OR, USA on 07.31.07
Image courtesy Diesel Technology Forum
These aren't words TreeHugger has ever had the pleasure to put in the same sentence before: diesel, Honda, United States, 62.8 miles per gallon, the year 2010. Ahh, that feels good. If this report from CNET is to be believed, it's all true: Honda plans to bring a clean-diesel Accord to the States by the year 2010, where it will get 62.8 mpg (on the highway, give or take) and pretty much kick ass.
The problem, mostly, to this point, has been that diesel engines produce and emit too much pollution to pass air-quality & emissions tests. That all started to change with the introduction of ultra-low sulfur diesel to the States, but automakers have been slow to assimilate. The introduction of a car like this is great news for TreeHuggers in the US: consumers can get hybrid-like (or better!) mileage from a conventionally-priced car and can further curb greenhouse gas and particulate emissions (and say so long to foreign oil) by pumping some biodiesel into the tank. Could the US be the new Europe (where half the cars run on diesel)? This could be the first step in the right direction. ::Diesel Technology Forum via ::CNET
This is great news. Wish it was sooner than that though.
I'm glad to see that we're making progress.
Next:
Why not do a diesel hybrid?
Couldn't a diesel hybrid get around 100mpg?
That's very exciting news that Honda plans to offer small and mid-sized cars with an optional diesel powerplant. It's true that ultra-low sulfur diesel burns cleaner than the old stuff, but that really only tells part of the story.
The real breakthrough is the common-rail diesel engine. These are the diesels that tend to astound any American car buff that has visited Europe in the last decade, when they realize those little Alfa Romeos, Fiats, Audis, Mercedes, etc., have whisper-quiet common-rail diesels under the hood. There's not enough room to go into the technology—do a Google search on common-rail diesels for that—but the results are easy to tout: Better fuel economy, exponentially quieter-running engines, and less pollution.
As usual, America lags behind Europe...
In other articles I've read about the Accord diesel it has said it's coming in 2009 and they quoted around 55 mpg for the US car. Could the 62.8 be using the larger imperial gallons in the figure?
I must say I enjoy my Accord and can't wait to try a diesel version.
Tim-- I think you're right that it is imperial gallons (if only because the Mini Cooper D press release quoted imperial Gallons today, at 68 mpg-- but I still can't see how the Accord and Mini could get such close mileage and have such a size disparity.
I'm really excited about the prospect to Diesels because of our local biodiesel co-op. http://www.labiodieselcoop.org.
But for all the people who keep acting like diesels are an answer to "gimmicky" hybrids, two things:
1) why are they mutual exclusive technologies? Like Jacob said, we should have hybrid diesels. The Mini Cooper start stop feature is cool, but why not do more?
2) You also need to take into account crude oil refining: you can mess with the ratio of diesel to convetional gasoline a bit, but at the end of the day, when you refine crude you're going to wind up with some diesel and some conventional gasoline. Diesels aren't a magic bullet, and mileage-wise they're better for big truck engines than passenger cars.
Therefore, it's not an "either or" question, it's a "both and" question. I'm just trying to preempt a debate of "deisel vs. hybrid" because its so silly.
A couple of statistical problems with this claim of 62.8 mpg. First of all, it is somewhat deceptive to put highway mileage in a headline - combined fuel economy is more appropriate.
Secondly, this vehicle is already available in the UK, and the MPG figures stated for this vehicle are in miles per IMPERIAL gallon -- which is 0.76 liters more than a US gallon.
Thirdly, European fuel economy testing procedures and calculations are not the same as EPA ones. One can see this by comparing the same car in different countries, like the Mercedes E320 CDI. In US gallon terms, its fuel economy in Europe is 22.8 city, 42.0 highway, and 32.2 combined. According to EPA testing, it's rated at 23 city, 32 highway, and 26 combined.
So you can see that the combined fuel economy in that case is overstated by 24%, the highway by 31%, and the city mileage is the same. Based on that, one could assume the Accord Diesel, which is rated 39.2/62.8/52.3 mpg (imperial) in the UK would translate to 48 highway and 42 combined in the US.
Keep in mind as well that that Accord diesel puts out 0.179 grams of NOx per kilometer, which is 0.288 g/mile. EPA emissions regulations from year 2008 onward have an upper limit of 0.200 g/mile for the least stringent emissions category. The reason we won't be seeing this vehicle for another couple of years is that it will need to improve its emissions fairly substantially to meet US requirements. I've heard Honda claim they project it to be able to meet Bin5 levels (0.07 g/mile of NOx) without using urea, so that's a 75% reduction it would need to achieve.
If I had to bet, these extram emissions controls are going to increase cost and dampen fuel economy.
Regardless, a sedan of that size averaging around 40 mpg would be fairly impressive, though real-world Camry Hybrid mileage is 36.7 mpg, and that's with emissions of around half the level of Bin5.
Camry Hybrid has considerably more horsepower (192 v 138) and somewhat better acceleration (8.6 seconds 0-60 mph v 9.4 seconds 0-100 km/h). The limited differential is probably because the diesel Accord has considerably more torque than the Camry Hybrid.
It will be interesting to see the final US specs on this vehicle, including price and emissions.
One addendum - fuel economy figures aren't exactly comparable between gasoline and diesel engines because diesel has more energy content per gallon (about 14% more).
In BTU per miles, the aformentioned combined fuel economy estimate for the diesel Accord comes to 3,069. For a 36.7 mpg gasoline vehicle, that translates to 3,106. Rounded, they both end up being the equivalent of a 37 mpg gasoline vehicle.
Interesting how 62.8 can really mean 37, yes?
One addendum - fuel economy figures aren't exactly comparable between gasoline and diesel engines because diesel has more energy content per gallon (about 14% more).
In BTU per miles, the aformentioned combined fuel economy estimate for the diesel Accord comes to 3,069. For a 36.7 mpg gasoline vehicle, that translates to 3,106. Rounded, they both end up being the equivalent of a 37 mpg gasoline vehicle.
Interesting how 62.8 can really mean 37, yes?
E85 is virtually non-existent where I live, but biodiesel is readily available. I'm looking at getting a VW Golf TDI to replace my Mazda Protege, and being able to run B100 or B80 in it would be fantastic.
I'm glad other car companies haven't forgotten diesels.
This is great and all.
But a couple of years ago, it was going to be 2008 when all these amazing cars were going to be available.
Now it's 2010?
Around 2009, it'll be 2012 and so on..
When can I get a diesel that gets decent gas mileage? 2010
When can I get a plug-in Prius with lithium ion batteries? 2010
When can I get a Chevy Volt? 2010 (yeah, right...)
On the Honda world web site they have a video about the i-CTDI gets 5.4l/100km which is a much more fixed number than MPG US vs MPG Imperial. 5.4l/100km is 44MPG US. Still admirable. And if compared to current EPA estimates (What is up with their change, anyway?) pretty good.
Things take time to be developed properly.
Honda is taking it's time on this. One thing they want to have is no additive needed for aftertreatments of the exhaust. While the MB Bluetec needs urea (sp?) the Honda will meet standards without.
GM came out with halfbaked diesels in the late 70's that turned people off of them for decades in the US. Here's hoping the Honda will undo that damage.
Will they start in the winter?
" Will they start in the winter?"
Probably as easily as my 2000 Jetta TDI that still do something like 44 MPG COMBINED or 53 MPG on the Highway (Highway at 80mph not 55mph where they rate the mpg on hybrids) even after 230 000 miles
"Diesels aren't a magic bullet, and mileage-wise they're better for big truck engines than passenger cars. "
TOTAL CRAP : compare EPA ratings for the 2003 Jetta TDI (1900cc) and the 2003 Jetta GL 2.0 gasoline.
Forget about HP; in real life, the 90hp TDI is faster than the 115hp 2.0L
my own experience shown the VW 2.0 made a combined 27MPG where the 1.9TDI made 45MPG (exact same conditions, driver and roads; the 2.0 was in a New Beetle while the TDI is in a Jetta)
my 2000 Jetta TDI that still do something like 44 MPG COMBINED or 53 MPG on the Highway (Highway at 80mph not 55mph where they rate the mpg on hybrids) even after 230 000 miles
You diesel fanatics always inflate your fuel economy. Funny how real-world averages are always significantly lower than the numbers that diesel fanatics post.
As for the speeds at which EPA tests for fuel economy, I suggest you consult their actual testing procedures before making comments about it.
Rating of your post: Not Believable
"You diesel fanatics always inflate your fuel economy. Funny how real-world averages are always significantly lower than the numbers that diesel fanatics post"
get one and try it; (it's clear you never owned a diesel CAR before)
The jetta is not babied; it was hotroded to almost double the HPs and torque rating. (360lb.ft and 196hp dyno proven)
yet, in normal driving I got the same MPG as when it came new from the factory.
as I said, get one and try it.
several Auto magazines said the same.
just to link two of them :
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x.htm
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060424/FREE/60417021&SearchID=73244466514443
So let's review your claims. You say you average 44 mpg with a "hotrodded" Jetta TDI with 230,000 miles on it. You further claim you get 53 mpg by going 80 mph on the highway. You also claim that hybrids are tested at 55 mph by the EPA.
The last claim is simply untrue. Despite my suggestion, you still seem to have not consulted EPA testing procedures.
Per your other claims, the EPA has real-world data submitted by owners of Jetta TDIs going back several years. There are 65 data points, with an average value of 40.7 mpg. One can only assume that these are not "double horsepower, double torque, hotrodded" TDIs, but rather normal ones, going normal speeds. Yet, somehow, they get a 3-4 mpg less than your old, souped-up TDI going at highly illegal speeds.
Like I said: Not Believable
I also wonder if you've bothered to have your "hotrodded" TDI emission tested. It certainly doesn't meet any modern EPA emissions requirements, as evidenced by VWs withdrawal of their diesels (aside from the Toureg) from the MY2007 lineup. Seeing as this is an environmental website, I am continually amazed that people come here touting their dirty-exhaust-spewing vehicles as some sort of green machine.
And I've driven plenty of diesels and been behind plenty more. No, thanks.
on the green side, my souped up TDI is burning waste veggie oil from the local restaurants.
get on TDICLUB and search for my user name "smog"; you'll get pictures, dyno reports and mileage reports.
I'm not the only one stating diesel is the way to go.
still not point in buying a prius.
on the green side, my souped up TDI is burning waste veggie oil from the local restaurants.
Not scalable.
get on TDICLUB and search for my user name "smog"; you'll get pictures, dyno reports and mileage reports.
Your reports are not credible.
I'm not the only one stating diesel is the way to go.
Bandwagon
still not [sic] point in buying a prius.
To each his own. The market indicates there's plenty of point for plenty of people.
"In BTU per miles, the aformentioned combined fuel economy estimate for the diesel Accord comes to 3,069. For a 36.7 mpg gasoline vehicle, that translates to 3,106. Rounded, they both end up being the equivalent of a 37 mpg gasoline vehicle.
Interesting how 62.8 can really mean 37, yes?
"
what is the point ?
there's more energy in a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline and by design, the gallon of diesel is less expensive and a compression ignition engine will always be more efficient than a spark ignited engine.
so how can you still bash diesel cars ?
and by the way, it take less energy to distilate a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline.
it look like someone got his mustang GT spanked by a super efficient diesel car and feel mad about it.
what is the point ?
To show how misleading the headline is.
there's more energy in a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline and by design, the gallon of diesel is less expensive and a compression ignition engine will always be more efficient than a spark ignited engine.
"By design" a gallon of diesel is less expensive than a gallon of gasoline? That doesn't make sense, either physically or empirically.
so how can you still bash diesel cars ?
Properly translating that inflated number into what it really is is "bashing"? You sound a bit hypersensitive.
and by the way, it take less energy to distilate [sic] a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline.
Talk about another misleading statement.
it look like someone got his mustang GT spanked by a super efficient diesel car and feel mad about it.
Are you a teenager or something?
Prius
4.3 l/100 km
104 g/km CO2
0.180 g/km CO
0.020 g/km HC
0.010 g/km NOx
NA g/km Particulates
69.0 Noise Level [dB(A), moving]
£722 fuel cost per 12,000 miles
Price £17,777
Accord Diesel
5.5 l/100 km
145 g/km CO2
0.176 g/km CO
0.017 g/km HC
0.179 g/km NOx
0.013 g/km Particulates
72.1 Noise Level [dB(A), moving]
£987 fuel cost per 12,000 miles
Price £19,367
Jetta TDI
0-60 10.5 seconds
Mustang GT
0-60 5.1 seconds
I think the real threat to the Mustang is a '79 Rabbit diesel, which has the same 1/4 mile and 0-60 times -- 21.3 seconds.
Have fun with your Soot Machine.
a bit of playing with numbers shown EPA rating (as per new testing method) for the accord hybrid will be 41.6 MPG (combined)
so 38.3 MPG city and 51.6 MPG highway should be close to EPA tests
(all the above are in US gallons)
"Have fun with your Soot Machine."
anyway we are the only 2 left reading this old thread so have a nice day.
(I'm still sure diesel is the way to go until we get diesel-electric hybrids OR BETTER electric car with a constant rpm diesel back-up generator (in the name of efficiency))
vw has been aggressivly working on a turbo diesel plug in hybrid car good for over 100 mpg. vw is also a leader in diesel clean burn technology. they should have a mass produced car, not a prototype, on sale any time now.
if true, vw would own the marketplace for at leaste 10 years while everyone else plays catch up.
Alternative fuel source for the fossil fuel by making use of the oil extracted from jatropha curcas seeds, which is then converted into biodiesel for industrial and automotive uses.