It's still just a car.

"It's still just a car."

Yeah, except that it's much much much better than the cars we have now.

Yeah, except that it's much much much better than the cars we have now.

It's $100,000 and has a 250 mile range, which decreases steadily with time. It takes many hours to recharge.

That's not "much much much" better. That's much much much worse. It may eventually lead to something better, but this particular vehicle is very niche.

Did you see the pileups in the recent snowstorms? In towns with lots of blackouts? Imagine a world of only electric cars under those conditions.

Regardless, it's still just a car.

Yeah, because there are no downsides to gasoline cars and they were affordable and useful in all situations when they came out.

It's $100,000 and has a 250 mile range, which decreases steadily with time. It takes many hours to recharge.

The range will increase and the price go down, and everybody sleeps at night AFAIK.

Tesla will eventually coming out with a sedan version that will be more affordable, which will be available to the general public.

Also, even though it takes a while to charge, you could just plug it in at night, and 250 miles is fairly typical range for a car powered by gas. Although on a road trip it might be a pain.

Compared to other cars in the high performance niche, this one has unique advantages.

This isn't meant to replace your minivan or honda civic. Instead, rich auto enthusiasts can buy this instead of a Ferrari, and have a car that is simple, reliable and cheap enough to run to be a daily driver.

Most Ferrari drivers use their cars a few hours at a time for pleasure. This is a good match for them, plus the green status.

This can fund the first wave of adoption while the technology trickles down to cheaper cars.

"Did you see the pileups in the recent snowstorms? In towns with lots of blackouts? Imagine a world of only electric cars under those conditions."

I think it would be a lot less expensive (and less trouble) to figure out how to make the power grid more reliable and decentralized, and how to make electric cars for all types of weathers, than what we're doing now with regard to oil (cost, military costs, indirect costs like smog, global warming, etc).

This can fund the first wave of adoption while the technology trickles down to cheaper cars.

Wishful thinking and/or marketing hype.

Tesla will eventually coming out with a sedan version that will be more affordable, which will be available to the general public.

Ditto.

Yeah, because there are no downsides to gasoline cars

Didn't say there weren't. But I didn't say they were "much much much better", either.

and they were affordable and useful in all situations when they came out.

Electric cars have been around for over 100 years.

"Wishful thinking and/or marketing hype."

That's what happens to everything else in the technology world. Please elaborate on the reasons why you don't think it will happen this time.

"Electric cars have been around for over 100 years."

So have fuel cells. The point is not about when they were first invented, but when they enter the mainstream. The earliest version of the internet was born in the 50s-60s. So what? It's only in the mid 90s that the real difference appeared to the consumers.. Electric cars are slowly reaching that point now.

That's what happens to everything else in the technology world.

This isn't a computer or a cell phone. It's a car.

Please elaborate on the reasons why you don't think it will happen this time.

I already have. This isn't new technology. There's a million reasons. Nor am I asserting it won't work. I'm asserting that people are counting chickens before they hatch. Yeah, it's good to be hopeful, but I also remember the same exact sort of hype about "Ginger" aka the Segway. How did that end up doing? Right - filling a very small niche and stumbling along.

The point is not about when they were first invented, but when they enter the mainstream.

Circular logic. And Tesla is far from being mainstream - not with their first vehicle, nor with the next one they have proposed.

It's only in the mid 90s that the real difference appeared to the consumers.

Sales in the mid-90s and the past few years were much higher than they've been the past couple of years. That means it's been going backwards, not forward.

Electric cars are slowly reaching that point now.

No, batteries are getting better because the portable electronics market has driven them to be better. And it's incremental change, not the kind of Moore's Law rate of change one sees in microelectronics.

And it's a different kind of industry entirely than "high tech". The capital constraints, the logistical challenges, the labor issues, the liability issues, the product development cycles -- all very different.

Too many people treat this as a fait accompli, yet not a single Tesla has even been delivered yet. People need to get a grip and realize this is a long and uncertain process. Remember the Segway - "Oh, they're going to redesign cities to accomodate this technology." Remember that? That was people like Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs saying that, not just Dean Kamen.

Did you see the pileups in the recent snowstorms? In towns with lots of blackouts? Imagine a world of only electric cars under those conditions.

Did you know that gas pumps are run by electricity? So if the power goes out, gas powered cars can't refuel.

Doesn't look like such a disadvantage, huh?

"White Star"? Sounds like an omen for a failure of Titanic proportions... Sorry.

I wish the Tesla crew nothing but luck. However, while I agree that we should be trying to decentralize the grid, the fact is that we haven't even really started, and everyone who's had a cell phone die during a three-day winter blackout should be thinking about this downside to electric cars.

"White Star"? Sounds like an omen for a failure of Titanic proportions... Sorry.

That's just an internal code name at Tesla, not the final name.

I wish the Tesla crew nothing but luck. However, while I agree that we should be trying to decentralize the grid, the fact is that we haven't even really started, and everyone who's had a cell phone die during a three-day winter blackout should be thinking about this downside to electric cars.

If not having started something yet is an excuse not to do something, we're in deep sh*t.

I want one! Or even a hopped-up consumer one (affordable), minus the fancy body work but still retaining the suspension and high torque. Maybe also 4-passenger model. How about 4WD for ski country? I'll deal with plugging it in at night to recharge it. My daily driving is typically 65-150 miles, so this will work for me. If it costs only $0.01/mile, that's a very affordable fuel bill. And I especially like that the petroleum industry gets none of it.

James: Yes, I was kidding.

And I am not at all saying that we shouldn't start doing something; I think it's an integral part of their approach that Tesla is pitching their initial run to people that can afford a $100K toy, ie: people that already have at least one conventional vehicle.

What I am saying is, developing one piece of the puzzle should spur development of others, but when it doesn't, people should be excused reluctance to early-adopt.

What I am saying is, developing one piece of the puzzle should spur development of others, but when it doesn't, people should be excused reluctance to early-adopt.

Well, actually, that's exactly what Tesla is doing.

They are starting with an expensive, low volume, high-profile and fun car exactly because they need money for R&D and production facilities, because right now the market for electric cars is small (low-volume = expensive) and so they might as well target the people who can afford them and aim to make a big media splash to create a market instead of making one more slow, ugly and undesirable EV. Their second EV will be a Sports sedan at about half the price, and the third will be a sedan even less expensive.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

Have you read Tesla's business plan on their website? It might be different than what you expect..

Did you know that gas pumps are run by electricity? So if the power goes out, gas powered cars can't refuel. Doesn't look like such a disadvantage, huh?

One could easily run gas pumps off of a generator. It's nowhere in the ballpark of the electricity required to "refuel" electric cars.

Gasoline can also be manually pumped, if necessary.

Try again.

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That's what happens to everything else in the technology world. Please elaborate on the reasons why you don't think it will happen this time.

A car is not the same as some microelectronic device. Cars don't double in performance every 18 months. And again, electric cars have been around for over 100 years -- not comparable to "high tech". There's plenty of other differences, starting with capital requirements.

So have fuel cells. The point is not about when they were first invented, but when they enter the mainstream.

Circular logic. EV sales have been declining the past few years -- substantially. Does that seem like how things happen with other technology?

It's only in the mid 90s that the real difference appeared to the consumers.. Electric cars are slowly reaching that point now.

If the "real difference" appeared in the 90s, why have sales slid back towards zero up until Tesla came along?

---

If not having started something yet is an excuse not to do something, we're in deep sh*t.

The world will spin on without little electric cars in it.

---

And I especially like that the petroleum industry gets none of it.

No, the coal, nuclear, gas, and electric industries will get the money.

The problem still remains that an electric car, no matter what its performance, will have a devil of a time getting me through my mid-life crisis especially since trophy wives are generally not treehuggers. Perhaps the marketing angle should be for midlife woman executives who don't give a damn about the roar of twelve cylinders.

James: it seems like you are deliberately missing my point.

I have read Tesla's business plan, and like I said, I support them. However, just because their model SHOULD spur home generation, etc, etc, doesn't mean that it WILL; they can build all the electric cars they want, and mainstream them down to $20K, but they are not in the business of decentralizing the grid, and as long as no one else is either, all their cars will be useless after a week of weather-related blackouts.

On a related "let's be realistic" note, I have yet to see any review of the Tesla that talks about its practicality in a cold environment; the EV-1 dropped its range to useless if it was required to run the heater continuously.

One could easily run gas pumps off of a generator. It's nowhere in the ballpark of the electricity required to "refuel" electric cars.

Did you know you can charge an electric car off a generator in an emergency?

Try again.

Did you know you can charge an electric car off a generator in an emergency?

Try again.

Sure in 8 hours. But then again usually generators run off of gas, so what's the point?

Did you know you can charge an electric car off a generator in an emergency?

Hey, you're funny. Why don't you tell us how many generators would be needed to recharge a city full of electric cars? Now compare that to the energy necessary to pump gas.

Silly.

I like the concept of an electric car.

I also like the concept of putting solar panels on top of electric car.

Did you know you can charge an electric car off a generator in an emergency?

A city full of electric vehicles?

Let's take Honda's largest industrial generator.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eb11000

It can put out, at maximum, 10.5 kW. It would take about 5 hours to recharge a Tesla with a device like that, which would run out the whole fuel tank of the generator. So, under your scenario, people should be prepared to cue up for "refueling" which will take 5 hours per $6,000 generator, as opposed to using a much smaller generator to power scores of fuel pumps which can refuel even very large vehicles in 5 minutes.

Again, not a good idea to count chickens that aren't even in the egg yet.

Did you know you can charge an electric car off a generator in an emergency?

Not a good chunk of the vehicles in a given city, no.

Try again.

A city full of electric vehicles?

James: it seems like you are deliberately missing my point.

I did miss your point initially, but it wasn't deliberate. Your point just wasn't very clear.

I have read Tesla's business plan, and like I said, I support them. However, just because their model SHOULD spur home generation, etc, etc, doesn't mean that it WILL; they can build all the electric cars they want, and mainstream them down to $20K, but they are not in the business of decentralizing the grid, and as long as no one else is either, all their cars will be useless after a week of weather-related blackouts.

The thing is, electric cars won't replace everything else overnight. As they become more popular in an incremental fashion, infrastructure will be built for them (same as with all new techs -- internet, cell phones, hdtv, commercial flight, etc). I bet that for a fraction of the cost of the Iraq war most of the western world could have a "smart grid" that works a bit like the Internet and routes power intelligently. I'm sure engineers can come up with other solutions. They had to figure out how to overcome a lot of problems to make gasoline cars viable, I'm sure they can do it for electrics.

On a related "let's be realistic" note, I have yet to see any review of the Tesla that talks about its practicality in a cold environment; the EV-1 dropped its range to useless if it was required to run the heater continuously.

Even if EVs just make sense in the warm parts of the globe, that's still a majority of vehicles.

But I'm sure something can be done about the cold. A kind of block heater for the batteries while the car is parked would probably use a lot less energy than our current inefficient gasoline cars. Maybe "cold" version of EVs can have a small biodiesel generator (or something else) to generate heat and/or electricity.

Point is, it's a problem, but it's not impossible to solve.

Living in an area that just experienced widespread power outages due to a windstorm, I can assure you that gas stations do not operate on generators when the power goes out. They simply shut down. Gas and electric vehicles would be in the same boat as far as refueling goes.

Electric vehicles would have one advantage, however: They would be more likely to be fully fueled in the case of an unexpected power outage. The reason is that owners of gas vehicles tend to refuel only when they have to, while owners of electric vehicles tend to top them off every night when they return home.

One thing you are all forgetting in this argument against the tesla and other EVs - particularly the Tesla is the solar power element. This point is directed at the charging and environmental arguments against the EV. Most detractors have used inaccurate info, but when I get my Tesla I will also be purchasing the solar panels for my garage. I will then be contributing BACK to the grid as the panels generate more than enough power to charge the vehicle everyday. Tesla already has this set up with a related company. And remember, when blackouts occur, the sun keeps on burning. If the sun ever stops, well we're all dead anyway, so... Photovoltaic technology has been gaining over the past few years and I would not be surprised to see solar replace fossil fuel energy in a few decades - though somehow we will have to keep corporate money out of our government to enable that to occur. Otherwise the fuel industries will keep blocking technology. And thats another thing - you point out that electric cars have been around awhile, and that autos don't improve every 18 months. Well they can, they just don't - there is a difference. Many improvements in autos have been stifled by the auto and oil industries -see Tucker and other innovators. They have also fought against other mass transit that used electric - see GM buyout of trolley systems.

The point is, this can and will be done, but not by the giants. It will be done by well funded entrepeneurs. Thanfully do to the dot com successes we have some innovative thinking, non-establishment people that fit the bill. And remember, these people must have done something right in their previous ventures to have made the hundreds of millions / billions they've made, so I would think they've thought this through a bit.

So, you're right, it won't be overnight, but it will work eventually, because it should, it makes sense, and it has to. We only have a few decades of oil left (China and India are now going to autos)- no matter how fast gas pumps work, they won't fuel a car when they're empty. But elctricity is always possible from the sun wind and water. When these elements are gone, we all die and won't need cars.

Bottom line - I was ecstatic to learn about the Tesla and am looking forward to getting one next year. It amazes me that we have been stagnant on the internal cumbustion engine for a century. Lets try progress. GO ELECTRIC!

I am almost positive that this bureaucratic bickering will be the death of us all.
Just look at all the posts. Some are seeiming to think that since the technology isn't 100% de-kinked or isn't a leap + bound past gas-burners it should all be abandoned. I am convinced that as the technology improves, infrastructure is made, and awareness is raised, electrics will become more widespread. It is a technology worth pursuing. Wind and solar sourced energy, be it from a municipality or in a home can help a great deal with grid shortfalls. It is best to find a common ground and work hard and smart toward different energy solutions. Whether you believe in an infinite oil supply view or not, whether you are getting it that the planet is going through some climate changes or not, several things are clear -

Much of our oil comes from bad neighborhoods. Oil cost to us is subject to big price swings. Pollution ( I like the quaint old fashioned term better) is good for no one. America has to make things - good things that are reliable and that people want.

Electrics are not good for everyone (yet?). There is a possibility that they may NEVER prove to be good for EVERYONE. Scenarios may come to pass that may make them a sole viable option and make people sacrifice things. While I won't mind too much being called preachy or a doomsayer - I certainly don't want to be called a naysayer.
I believe in self reliance and self sufficiency- electrics, even a partial adoption of them, is a step in this direction.

My hats off to anyone who can get a Tesla Roadster or one day a White Star sedan. There are some people I would love to see get their butts kicked by one!!

vsk

I guess James never loses.

The reason I look at this car with hope is that its one of the only electric cars I would consider buying, I'm not really willing to sacrifice something that I enjoy just to go greener but this car does make it to my wish list. It just like the Lexus GS 450h that I'm leasing.