....or just stop feeding cows whatever crap you can find. My father visited a feedlot and they feed the cows whatever waste human food they can get cheap in bulk. Bushels of expired Froot Loops, stale bread, basically anything that can get the weight up.

Today's beef is so tasteless anyway, and this is probably why....

"You save more water by not eating a pound of beef than you do by not showering for an entire year."

I believe this is based on out of date information, and was limited to raising beef in California where it is very arid. The Beef industry claims that it takes much less.

But the other environmental reasons for going veg are much stronger.

See Global warming - The inconvenient truth about what we eat for an in depth look at the issue.

"You save more water by not eating a pound of beef than you do by not showering for an entire year."

I believe this is based on out of date information, and was limited to raising beef in California where it is very arid. The Beef industry claims that it takes much less.

But the other environmental reasons for going veg are much stronger.

See Global warming - The inconvenient truth about what we eat for an in depth look at the issue.

Why don't we switch over to animals that don't take so much resources to grow, like lamb or buffalo?

If a cow is a machine that turns grass into food, why don't we just switch to more efficient machines?

Humans have been eating beef for tens of thousands of years. I'll continue to trust human history rather than some modern dietary religion that is veganism. Damn dumb hippies.

I'm all for going as sustainable as possible, but I'm not arguing with evolution either. We're omnivores, from our canine teeth to our binocular predatory eye design. I'm also all for going organic, consuming less meat and eating your veggies.

Neither extreme (both represented here) really helps the debate or environment.

The problem, Anonymous, is that there are a lot more humans and cattle on the planet now than anytime in the past.

The situation is out of balance. We as a species need to cut way back on meat consumption. Eating no animal products is a nice ideal but important thing is to eat less meat.

We don't need to cut back on meat, perhaps we need to change meat production processes.

You are entitled to believe that, but the scientific evidence is no where near proving that.

Biologically, we are omnivores, not carnivores and not vegetarians, as JS notes. Some poeple may be surprised by this but biologically we are drastically different from carnivores who's super sharp and needle-like teeth can slice flesh easily, and who's intestines are very very short, while human teeth are great for grinding and chewing lots of fiberous material, and our intestines are very, very long, which help us digest that fiber well. But we can digest animal flesh, too (or at least most of us) if we need to, which makes us humans very adaptable to all sorts of situations. So it's not that we can't eat animals, at least not for health reasons, but we also don't have to eat animals, for health reasons, either. That's why humans are so successful genetically. We can live well on many different kinds of diets. And while many human cultures have indeed been eating meat for a long time, either out of necessity or simply because of tradition, it doesn't mean we have to continue doing it if it is not in our best interests. For people who don't think it's healthy for themselves, directly or indirectly, it's great to support them with more sustainable and healthy options. For those who either don't care, or think that they need to keep eating meat, then they should have the option to do so in as sustainable and healthy way as possible.

So we should try to both cut down on our consumption of meat, if we can, and make meat production as healthy as possible.

If I can't tell the difference, I'm all for lab grown meat...
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4439/

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/are-humans-carnivores-or-herbivores-2/

http://www.alternet.org/story/12162

Most corn and grain that is grown goes into animal feed, so the more we cut meat consumption, the more calories are available to ease food shortages, and the less we'd pay for food. A pound bag of dry beans at the market costs 1 dollar, and probably provides enought caloric and protein substitute for $20 worth of meat. Just soak before cooking, or you'll be contributing to global warming yourself!

Great post Turil. I'd only add that we're also quite different biologically from most herbivores too (i.e., there's only one primate species with a four-chambered stomach, adapted to digest tough plant starches (if I remember my basic undergrad evolution and morphology class correctly). And there's of course stuff such as a risk of anemia from B-12 deficiencies and gluten allergies.

:)

All that said, we could probably subsist on some futuristic gruel too...I just happen to love a good, organic and ethically killed steak every once in awhile! :) And nobody's really hit another aspect of this...those in my neck of the woods that hunt for food. Meat isn't just cows and farm-grown chickens. We're talking deer and sometimes a social equity issue, i.e., those who honestly can't afford organically grown produce or Amy's Kitchen...let alone hormone-laden, climate-changing supermarket beef.

:)

im not sure i buy the argument of not being able to afford to eat a healthy natural/organic vegetarian diet, and that poverty is why people hunt. i live in a rural area full of hunters, yet i have never met a hunter who is doing so out of neccessity to feed their family. as to the affordability of the diet, i live in a 3 person household with an average monthly combined income of around 1500 dollars (waitress, barback, and grocery store clerk respectively). after rent and utilities the money that is left over is more than anough to keep us well stocked in our fridge and pantry. and while i know there are people with even lower incomes, the lower the income the more money you get in aid to purchase food (i know as at one point i was looking in to my states version of food stamps)which at least in my state (illinois)can be used toward any type of food.

with the exception of the homeless, who may very well be out hunting, and in which case i completely understand their need to eat, and wouldnt dare impose my ethics on a starving person, i dont think there is a single person who purchases food who could claim too little money to not purchase meat.

Jess..., if you're ever up in Upstate NY, I can definitely introduce you to more than a few families I know personally who hunt at least partly due to economics.

You're assuming any income should go to food. How about saving that few hundred dollars for medical care, christmas presents, or even a family trip? your household sounds like three younger people living together? no kids? add a few of those, and it's entirely reasonable that extra money goes to things other than food, say rising gas prices, new tools or even a small savings account.

what of indigenous tribes such as the Iroquois who hunt? i live next to the onondaga indian nation...and am friends with some onondaga. hunting for them is spiritual, essential to their culture.

my only point...we can argue the facts as they relate to climate change or even cattle in america eating better than people in africa, but let's stay there. the basic morality of it is an entirely different issue.

According to JS: "We're omnivores, from our canine teeth to our binocular predatory eye design." We have canines and binocular vision not because we are omnivores, but because we are primates. These traits are shared by all primates, including totally vegetarian ones, such as gorillas (a close relative of humans). Our closet relatives are chimpanzees, who eat very little meat (it's an estimated 3% of their diet), and bonobos, who eat even less meat than chimps. We can survive perfectly well on a vegetarian diet and are probably best biologically adapted to a diet with very little meat.

Whatever the percentage, we still eat meat, and that's really my point.

That ends any vegetarian claim based in biology, that's all.

If anybody chooses to not eat meat, that's fine...there's just no biological basis for it.

My bigger point is just that the environmentalist doesn't do itself any favors with uncategorical statements like, "it's time to go veg!", or judgments about those who do choose to eat meat.

And taking your claim about our morphology deeper, how did primates evolve? That we have these features because we are primates doesn't address my points.

JS, how can that end any vegetarian claim based on biology? Just because something does now eat something doesn't maean it is more natural for it. Ruminants (the feed-lot kind) are omnivorous and were cannibalistic until not too long ago. Most animal food for cats and dogs it not made up of high-quality protein from say farm animals. It's the left over remains from farm animals as well as road-kill, euthanized pets like dogs and cats. So I guess they're now cannibals too by the same reasoning.

That still doesn't make it right. Since people CAN live off a vegan or vegetarian diet it provides ALL the evidence that there is a biological basis for vegetarianism. That still doesn't negate anything that we can also eat meat. As can be shown in many feedlot animals. They're "herbivore" by "nature" but on the feed-lot the can and do eat animal products. Does that mean they're no longer "herbivore"?

the problem is not with cows, but with our farming methods. when food becomes a commodity, then everything to reduce the cost becomes a postive (from a business perspective). This can be devastating to localised environments, but also have drastic impacts on the diets of the animals. Please carefully read the text of the UN report! Organic, free range, and even just grain fed cows do not output methane to a fraction of the level of conventionally farmed cows

Free-range or not, these animals are being bred for our consumption. Why eat other animals or the products from these animals when we can survive just fine (and deliciously) without these things?
I really can't stand when people say we should eat meat because we have a few sharp teeth to do that with. Ever heard of evolution?

Factory farming, feedlots, etc are a big part of the problem.

In feedlots, the even feed dead cows to the other cows! This practice contribute to the possibility of Mad Cow, yet it is still commonplace.

Countries that doen't do the grain feed feedlot cattle process like Argentina produce healthier cattle and less concentated waste. If you eat beeg, do yourself a favor and eat organic, grass feed beef. It's better for you and bettr for the environment.

can you tell me do we have enough water left in australia?

Cattle are "responsible for 18% of greenhouse gases, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together."

Pfft! That's absurd.

This is a plug for the book "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan, 2006. (standard disclaimer, no financial interest, etc...) It has a better-than-average discussion of the option of vegetarianism. But the big win is its discussion of the industrial food system, cows, and sustainable alternatives. Probably folks here are familiar with much of what it covers, but it is eye-opening in a readable way. At the local library the waiting list for this book is longer than for the latest "Magic Tree House" kid's book, which is saying something...

you dont win friends with salad!!! you dont win friends with salad!!!!

it's just a little slimy!!! it's still good!!! its still good!!!

take your gazpacho(sp!?) back to russia

one whopper for the COPPER

this reminds me of when lisa stopped eating meat on the simpsons. Lighten up.

so, I'm willing to eat less meat in the interest of the climate--but I'd like to be more informed about the meat i do eat--what is the carbon impact of chicken vs. beef, lamb vs. fish etc.?

Where do you get your information, I do not belive you have evidence to back up this information.

Check out this website to learn about energy derived from cow poop. There are many farms running on cow manure and this is where a majority of the methane really exists.

Also, if cows were fed grass instead of grains, they wouldn't produce so much methane.

Grow your own food.

Peace out,
Star