Citizenrē's REnU: A Solar Service System for Homeowners

I really like this idea in pricipal, but where are these guys getting their capital? Does anyone else think the sales associate system sounds like a pyramid scheme?

I can't find anything on their site about what happens if you move after say 3 years of having the service. This could be a problem for people who get transferred in their jobs. hopefully they have a good solution for this because it sounds like a great option to get people onto solar.

Granted this adds a layer of complexity for your contract when selling your home.

But I'm thinking anyone who would be interested buying a house with solar panels already on it would also be interested in paying less than the power companies cost for their electricity.

If you move to a new home, the company will move the panels with you at no cost. This option is valid only for one time, for 5 and 25 years contracts. As an alternative, the contract can be transferred to the new home owner (at no cost) or simply termitated, which will result in the loss of the initial security deposit - average $500 - paid at the time of installation.

As far as marketing, Citizenre has chosen to use direct sales to better reach its target market, home-owners.

There is an ongoing discussion of this at grassrootsmodern.com as well as one person that is signing up. Check it out:http://forum.grassrootsmodern.com/discussion/81/affordable-solar-power/

The thing that worries me is their pyramid scheme marketing. hmm

I went ahead and signed up after seeing this article just to find out what the real deal was. Where's the bait and switch? So far no switch. I do have to wait until September of next year to get it, but apparently I get today's rate since I'm signing up now.

I saw their direct sales site. I called them on it. I didn't know if they were going to try and get me in an MLM scheme or not. The sales associate said that I didn't have to be involved in marketing at all. The rental stands on its own two feet. If I wanted to sell, I was more than welcome to, but if not he asked me to refer a few friends to him. I said that I would give his information to my friends, but that I would go to bat for him.

I figure, why not? Didn't cost me anything. They didn't ask for any personal info. And since I signed up for a 25 year contract, I got my security deposit waived. (waiver offer is good til January 1, so take your time and read through the site if you haven't) No risk... You gotta be a little light on the grey matter if you don't just sign up now.

I have been renovating a a historic home in Savannah, Ga. for the past several months and have been struggling with what to do about electricity. Since Georgia does not have any tax breaks for solar panels it was really out of the question until I came across this post. I am a bit nervous about the 25 year contract period however. Does anyone know where I can find information on the historical rates of electricity? Is there any chance I could end up paying more with the solar panels than with my local electric provider ten years from now?

This appears to be scam in that
1. They have no solar panels to sell, only a "factory" to be built that "promises" to make the lowest cost panels on the planet - and thats what makes the "deal" work. One rep said it will be the largest plant of its kind in the world built in Delaware. In searching news archives and solar industry sources, no plant of any kind is being built in Delaware or in the US for that matter. You would think that such an investment would make news. It didn't because it ain't.

2. Social Security # - being asked for your SS# by person you never met in another state - that's something that Craigs' List advises against in order to avoid being scammed yet that's what this outfit wants ASAP.

so...if someone wants you to sell something that does not exist that will allegedly be made real cheap in a place that does not exist and wants your SS# to boot...well just use your common sense.

Hey Stonecoldsolar:

I signed up and they didn't ask me for a SSN. I saw your post on another blog, and it sounds to me like you work for Big Oil. Do they have you a little nervous? It's about time.

Yes, It is a little nerve racking. I'm a huge supporter of PhotoVoltaics, so I'm in. http://www.citizenre.com/robertreese

The concept sounds great, unfortunately it seems to me that they will never be able to produce the number of systems they can promise.

Here's the scary part. Let's say they reach their goal of 30k sales reps by year's end. Let's further say they never recruit another sales rep after that. And lets say each sales rep only signs up one person per week.

That’s 30,000 sign-ups per week, each one accompanied by a $500 non-refundable deposit from the homeowner.

They claim they will have their manufacturing plant up and producing at 20% by September. That’s about 35 weeks of collecting $500 checks from 30,000 sales reps.

They will have collected over 500 million dollars before producing even one system. They will have promised over one million systems by then in a plant that, at full capacity, can only produce 100,000 systems per year!

The reality is that they are not stopping at 30,000 reps, but will continue to grow their network exponentially, collecting well over one billion dollars before they have even promised to deliver on their goods.

Great comments Benjamin! Can't argue with that!

I was asked to be a 'Rep' (of course isn't everybody?) and had to click through a few screens to fill out personal info and they indeed wanted my SS#. Uh, no I don't work for 'big oil' - I run a small construction company in Massachusetts.

People:
It's free to become an associate. Do it and get your questions answered. Remember the satellite dish? It's the same idea. Also, remember whose side your on. If you're skeptical, ask them, before bashing them. It's solar, after all.

I tried to do a background check on this company through the Better Business Bureau's national website and their Delaware website(Where Citizenre has a physical address) and the BBB has no record of this company existing. I requested that the BBB look into the comapny, but have not heard anything back yet. Will keep you posted.

ALSO: No address in Cambridge, MA although they claim to have a 'Research Center' there. Sure in some grad student's laptop in an MIT dormroom LOL. Good idea since its cloudy there 55% of the time. No known address in Cambridge at this time but they "announce" such on their site. Seems as soon as you scratch the surface on this bunch, its a dead end. And it seems they search the web for boards like this and their "associates" post brain-numbed comments but can't argue any facts.

Uh, not at all like satellite TV. They have something to sell, CitizenRe does not. You pay for the system, you own it with SATTV.

Great comments Benjamin, however you have forgotten a small detail, they do NOT require any deposit whatsoever. I signed up a week ago as an associate and I was on their conference call on Sunday. All I heard was answers to all of my questions. As a matter of fact I have already signed up my parents and some of my neighbors. By the way I did not have to give them my SSN#.

Maybe it wouldn't hurt if you read their site before you start typing. Their Delaware address is actually registered to them. Look it up for yourself: https://sos-res.state.de.us/tin/GINameSearch.jsp

They might not be a big name now, so what? What have the BIG NAMES given us so far? I don't see BP Solar coming up with anything, and beside financing their own programs, all they have done in the last 10 years is change their logo to a green sunflower. Great.

SSN's were required, now they are not required to be an associate. They will be required in order for sales associates to get paid. Deposits are not required for December. According to the website, after December there will be a $500 security deposit after an engineer comes out and does a site survey, designs a PV system compatable with the usage of the customer, and both the customer and Citizenre agree to terms. I'm told that the manufacturer of the PV's will make the announcement after the first of the year... Let's not rush into anything. I'm glad we're talking about this, and let's use our heads, but let's DO something too. Be safe, but Get involved!
Robert Reese

It does not add up in many ways. The company has no capacity whatsoever to do what they claim they will do. If you want to see a REAL PV company...not a bunch of posers like these inexperienced fast talking jokers, look for Nanosolar of Palo Alto, CA. They have 3x the existing manufacturing capacity and are in fact building the largest PV plant in the USA and they own the world's largest plant in Germany. Regardless PV is a very risky speculative business so by pre-selling to individuals CitizenRENU reduces the risk to investors. No doubt they are up to SOMETHING but with no record anywhere of these people doing any business in the venture capital markets where ALL the solar companies get their start-up dough - or registered in any state other than DE - or known to anyone in the solar industry - its would be way too risky to do any business with people who have no experience in the industry. Keep away.

When I first saw the citizenre logo I assumed that they were assosiated with BP Solar since they use the same flower type thing. I haven't found any connection though. Anyone have info on this?

It is a blatant use of what marketing 101 calls 'associative semi cognitive imaging' in this case it works since you made the mental connection to BP a legitimate solar entity. This is how sleazy people build trust through these types of blantantly misleading marketing tricks. Don't be fooled by the famliarity of the images that are just different enough from the trademarked logos to avoid legal action. Who knows maybe BP should sue them. It's pretty sneaky ain't it?

I don't think the CitizenRE logo looks anything like the BP logo. I agree that that the volume of panels they intend to produce and install is a little worrisome but I think the long-term financials make sense. As they lock in the rates for the consumers the return on the net-metered electricity that is sold to the Utility combined with the renewable energy credits that will be sold to business that wish to purchase them makes a lot of sense. So for a fixed up front cost they will be recieving higher and higher returns for the installed hardware. I hope this inspires other companies to do the same, especially for smaller scale wind power in areas where this is appropriate. I also think that there should be Federal Legislation that enforces net-metering in the few states that have bowed to the pressure of utility companies and refused to open their networks.

Benjamin. wow. Talk about conspiracy theory. Citizenre collects NO deposits until a design engineer visits the house and the customer signs off on the design. Then the deposit is collected and the system is installed.

It would be unethical to collect a deposit before the product was produced.

All the company is currently doing is getting customers to "raise their hand" and say, "I am interested." If they don't like the design or they want to change their mind for any reason...they can decline at any time before the system is installed with no penalty.

No social security numbers are collected. No deposits are collected.

When a rep starts earning money, the are required to give a ss number before a check can be paid. That is federal law for tax purposes.

Your assumption that 30,000 reps would sell on avg 1 unit a week is highly ambitious. The avg rep gets 2.2 customers during their entire career according to network marketing statistics.

Most people will just tell a few neighbors...but that is how we spread the word. Customers can even get 5% off their bill every monty for every customer they refer.

What makes Citizenre unique is that there is no investment from the reps, ever. Most companies profit from their rep base ordering products to qualify for their check. With Citizenre there is nothing to order. Reps make money by switching customer to solar.

That seems like a good thing to me.

Dear "anonomous"

NanoSolar has some great people and just raised $100 million in venture capital. They had to use venture capital because their technology has never been proven in the field. Venture capital comes with a high price.

Citizenre is able to use debt financing, which has much more attractive terms, because they are using a proven technology.

Before you call Citizenre "posers," look up their CTO, Dr. Rob Wills. He is probably the most respected design engineer in the renewable space.

What Citizenre is doing is unique and there will be skeptics. I just didn't think there would so many on this site.

If you have not seen their new video with Ed Begley Jr. go to www.jointhesolution.com/join

It explains the whole program. Take the time to understand it. It makes sense. The video is only 8 minutes.

Its hard to see how this will work financially. for 500 dollars down and about 50-60 a month, they are going to install a rooftop pv system and interface it with your home wiring and with the electric utility. I figure this has to cost 10-15 thousand minimum and that still wouldnt supply all your power.

I know a little about solar, having stock in a company that manufactures thin film pv. I've read and studied about it for 6 years now. I really want this to work, I would love to have pv on my roof but I dont see how it can be financially feasible.

Also My kwh cost is 8c , they show it as 10.3c . I'd pay 10.3 for the solar generated energy on principle, but that isnt the retail cost at my utility.

If I did the system I would also want to add a little storage to run my well, a few lights and my fridge in a power failure. I know it costs 5-600 dollars just to put a small collector and accessories on an a garden shed to run a light and a 15 amp receptacle for a power tool. I just dont see how they could do this.

I agree with Benjamin on this 1

I was asked the same as well, as if everybody isn't huh? And there you go, what's my #SS?? Just forget it alright? When marketing get too "clever", it starts being irritating isn't it? I guess all should have figured what's going on. However these guys somehow make a living too, so i withdraw "all".

Unfortuantely treehugger has once again failed to do their due diligence on a simple story. I have to remain anonymous here because of the possibility of retribution from CitizenRE.

Hopefully the dozens who have signed up for this multi-level marketing scheme still have a way out; note that all comments in support of the program trace back directly to sales representatives or employees of the company, and that the financial claims, address, undisclosed principals, proprietary information, and pressure to sign up as a sales rep once reserved for your PV system are all classic indicators of a semi-Ponzi scheme.

The solar industry is once again falling afoul of unethical business practices; the only hope to continue the surge in current solar development is to stick to ethical business practices and savvy buying.

Get multiple quotes on your system from ethical installers, request a contractor's license and referrals, and check into the financing options offered by companies that *don't* work like Amway or Prepaid Legal.

treehugger, you've done a great disservice by failing to do some real reporting here - but there's still time. An hour or three of simple investigation could make a real story for you and make sure solar doesn't take another crippling black eye the way that they did in the 70s.

I'm very surprised at the skeptism and misinformation on this post. Have these people really been beat up in the marketplace, by bad companies, so badly that they have to come up with every lame excuse in the world?

First of all, a pyramid scheme is when a company requires you to pay money to join as a sales associate, then tries to encourage you to spend your time signing up new associates instead of selling the product. Most of the money you pay to sign up is distributed to the upline. This is bound to collapse and leave the people on the bottom rungs losing money. Citizenre doesn't charge anything to sign up and the only way to make money is to sell these systems. Definitely not a pyramid scheme.

And not that I think the BP Solar symbol looks like the Citizenre one - but why would they want to make people think they are connected with that company? BP has spent a lot of money in the last 10 years on solar technology and have what to show for it? With that kind of success, I wouldn't even want my kids lemonade stand confused with them.

Secondly, the product. It's a similar desgin to what has been on the market for a couple of decades. There is newer technology, but hasn't been tested to last that long. Any investor would understand that to attempt this large scale program, the product would have to be reliable. $100 million to Nanosolar may sound like a lot of money, but in the energy industry it's nothing. If you run the numbers, Citizenre is looking at a multi-billion dollar financing plan. Not the kind of financing a new, untested technology is going to get.

Thirdly, the opportunity for the customers. The only upfront cost is the "refundable" security deposit(with interest) and that isn't due until the systems engineer comes to your home, makes the computations and plans for the system, and the homeowner signs off on the plan. After signing the initial Forward Rental Agreement, the homeowner can cancel this contract at anytime and with no penalty, up until the homeowner approves this plan. In fact, if the homeowner has a credit score over 750 (same criteria as to be approved for an auto manufacturer's car loan rate) then there is no security deposit required. There are 1, 5, and 25-year contracts available that lock in the rate that you currently pay your electrical utility. No installation or maintenance costs.

And finally the opportunity for sales associates. How about $500,000 to pay to the sales associates before the company collects a dime from any customers? Granted it does take a little faith to work for a company and get most of the money for the sales down the road. Anyone that has followed any religion should understand faith. Why MLM? Simple - word-of-mouth advertising is the strongest form and it also creates a large network of associates that future products/services/idea can be disseminated through.

This opportunity, as a customer or associate, isn't for everyone, right now. Some people are negative about everything. Some customers don't like to be the early adopters and just follow the crowd, when the crowd gets big enough. And some salespeople don't look in the long term, they're just worried about what they are taking home next week. That's fine. They can come on board at a later date.

So in conclusion, if this is a scam, it's worst scam ever, because they are spending a lot of money and haven't made a dime yet. All the negativity in the world isn't going to stop this movement. President Bush signed the Solar America Initiative that states over 75 million Americans(25%) must be getting their power through Renewable Energy by 2025. We won't even come close to that if we use the same plan as all of the solar companies have for the past 30 years(less than 1% market share).

So please be green, hug a tree, and open your eyes to the possibilities.

For more information please go to:
www.jointhesolution.com/freethegrid

Kirk- is that true that citizenre will waive the $500 security deposit if ones credit is >750? Did not know that. Awesome information!

CitizenRe is nothing but internet postings and a fancy webpage.

Their business model makes no sense.
See my rather rough analyis and commentary here:
http://renergynow.blogspot.com/
january 10 2007 posting

I suspect your $500 downpayment is all they are after.

Who is Dr. Robert H. Wills?

this one is from the CitizenRe corporate website...

http://www.citizenre.com/web/index.php?p=leadership

http://sandia.gov/ess/Publications/Conferences/2001/RobertWills.pdf

http://www.distributed-generation.com/Library/UIT_AE.pdf

WOW Dr. Wills is connected to Beacon Power through Advanced
Energy Systems...Why hide info like this??? It is beyond me...
Beacon Power is BIG...Their flywheel technology is cutting edge &
being looked at in California.
*************************************************************

Beacon Power Corporation was founded in 1997 as a spin-off of
SatCon's Energy Systems Division, to develop flywheel-based energy
storage. We became a separate operating entity in 1998, and became a
public company in 2000 (Nasdaq: BCON). Our first flywheel systems
were deployed in multiple locations in North America for
telecommunications backup power applications. As the
telecommunications market slowed, we applied our technology to UPS
and higher power applications, leading to the Smart Power and Smart
Energy systems.

Realizing the synergy between flywheel energy storage and solar
power, in 2003 we acquired the intellectual property assets of
Advanced Energy Systems of Wilton, New Hampshire, a manufacturer of
photovoltaic (solar) power conversion systems. Today, as we continue
to explore new applications for flywheel energy storage, we have
launched a new line of solar power electronics products, beginning
with the Smart Power M5.
**************************************************************
http://www.beaconpower.com/company/news.htm

this is more recent info from 2005...

http://www.nesea.org/be05/Pages/Content/Tracks/track3.html

Scroll down at this link & check out the short bio fo Dr Wills
notice who the other speakers are?

It's all smoke and mirrors until they actually install a solar system, which they won't this year...Read On.

Join in the solution and stop being part of the problem! I have investigated this company since its inception. I have spoken to it's principals and have evaluated the technical side of this company. I have 28 years of electrical engineering background and give a "GREEN" light to sign up for this "GREEN" energy alternative!
Go to:
www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville
and read all the data and facts - make your own educated decision to sign up for SOLAR!!

That PDF is password protected. Where's an unprotected copy?

I signed up with CitizenRe. Alarm bells went off when the sales associate tried to sign me up as a sales rep. MLM? Yeesh. After reading thru this blog and others, I think now I'll wait until this operation is up and running before putting down my deposit. Now that I think about it, I don't see any real advantage in signing up early. Why not just wait til they go live?

Robert,
PDF is now unlocked. Let me know what you think, here or in comments on the linkitt dossier blog. Seems like one side isn't being upfront, and i'm afraid it's the company.

This is a link to the PDF:

http://linkitt.com/blog/2007/02/06/citizenres-legitimacy-called-into-question/

Good Luck

CitizenRe will use 5x8 matrix multi crystalline cells (18% efficient) on the rooftops of thousands of homes.
Their plan is to offer the homeowner a rental charge for the energy that is being produced from the array.
I have signed up my home and I am telling as many people about this "green" solution that I can. If anyone who reads this blog has any questions, contact me at:
www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville

thanks

For all the latest updates see:

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/podcast?id=47452

I am very confident that the CitizenRe business model will work out, it truly is the only economies of scale solar solution currently being proposed in any real way.

Please read CitizenRe Answers to solar industry concerns: 2007-02-13

By, Dr. Robert Wills, P.E. CTO, Citizenre
Link:
CitizenRE Answers Solar Industry Concerns

Please join the solution using my Links Today!
Customer Site - Free Solar System
Associate Site - help others get free solar systems

It is Network Marketing but it differs in that associates don't have to pay anything to sign up or to receive payment on successful customer acquisition... additionally the company is contractually obligated to pay you commissions on your customer base for set multi-year term contracts... something no other MLM has ever offered.

Their executive team is incredible and the website systems are impressive, free training and required online exams... looks like a strong opportunity to me.

Thatcher Michelsen - 2Renu, Inc

Lets all make a difference on the environment here in the U.S. for the future.I have been looking closely at a company (CitizenRe)for months now and have registered to represent them. I have 28 years engineering experience and have always wanted a solar system on my home. My conclusion about this company is that they are legitimate and I am willing (and so are my customers) to wait for this young company to follow through on all of their promises. I can give you an honest assessment of this company. Please join in-become a customer or an associate on my team! I promise to make you successful at promoting this great "green" technology. I live in Yorkville IL and I am committed to converting all the roofs in my town from "black tar to blue polycrystalline"! Coming to a roof near you, CitizenRE!
www.powur.com/yorkville
www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville

I share every little bit of skepticism that has been expressed here.

That said, I signed up for a rental agreement. They are definitely not bilking end-users. They may well be bilking investors. I am not an investor. I am not one of their "econauts" or whatever they are.

There isn't a downside for me, apart from the very real possibility that I will never get anything installed by them and they will evaporate into the night.

It doesn't sound impossible to me. But it does sound difficult and new. The only way I see them making money is in fixing the costs of energy production now and expecting them to increase. They are, effectively, making themselves into a major utility overnight.

I agree that it all appears to be vaporware right now. But it is vaporware that is no risk to me. So I am taking the chance. YMMV.