Schwinn's New Line of Electric Bikes

I'm curious: What is this doing on Treehugger? Bikes work GRAND as designed, and adding electrical components and heavy metals only serves to make a bike more like a car and far more wasteful to boot. Electric bikes are not going to get people out of cars, folks. Instead, they're going to (and already do) create one more non-recyclable, toxic-laden, method of transportation for storage in the garage next to the cars, truck, motorcycle and bicycle. Sure, it's one more transportation choice, but is that what we are after? More choices? Again, like the RED campaign - it's 'saving the world through shopping'. Bah.

Tod, you must be young and perfectly healthy, to be so arrogant about a product that's clearly not designed or aimed at you. Many of us live on our bikes, but not all of us live in the Netherlands where it's nice and flat everywhere...if you have lung disease, arthritis, bad knees, you name it, you'll have problems pedaling uphill. A little power-assist now and then sure helps, and of course we can pedal zero-emissions style the rest of the way.

And hey, aren't you using a toxic-metals-laden computer to write this comment? Why aren't you writing in on bamboo paper using ink derived from fruit that agreed to be in the ink in the first place? (cf. Eddie Izzard) pot to kettle...come in please...

[JG: Hey folks, keep it civil.]

I totally agree with the second post.
My father would not be able to enjoy the outdoors as he does now without his E-Bike. He happens to have a bad hip from working construction as well as a number of other health issues and was unable to get out for bike rides with me. Since purchasing an electric bike, he can now join me for long rides no matter what the terrain and if he gets tired towards the end he goes on full electric. This has totally improved our relationship and he feels great to keep doing the things he loves to do like riding a bike. This is something most people take for granted. I have recently noticed a very negative feeling towards a few of the electric bike threads and I don't think everyone understands how much of an important step these are in creating a cleaner environment as well as getting the eldery and the high rate of obese children in North America out for some exercise. Even if they need a little help from an electric motor at least it's a push in the right direction...Ken

Wow, AJ-- talk about some backhanded civility. At any rate, I agree with one of Tod's main points. That being, does this entice or draw more people away from automobiles, and into greener transit? If so, great. But to those already inclined, regardless of physical health and ability to bike conventionally, they will be ones making the effort to travel O=C=O lightly. And if this catalyzes the urban/suburban cycling phenomenon we all know is secretly brewing beneath the chassis of a soccer mom's SUV, then right on!

Bottom line-- a little cynical realism to a blip on the green radar, that's keeping us honest.

P.S. I'm young and strapping too, biking wherever possible. I thought us young one were supposed to be the idealists?

Electric bikes are not going to get people out of cars, folks.

An electric bike got me out of my car. It took me a year of riding a Giant LA Free Lite electric bike to work before I was in decent enough shape to use my old road bike as a commuter vehicle. And then a year of riding that before I moved up to an Xtracycle-equipped cargo bike. And now that I've been riding that for a while, I'm thinking of adding a Stokemonkey electric assist, so I can use the bicycle for hauling loads I would otherwise have to borrow or rent a car to carry.

A bicycle is a realistic primary vehicle for me 75% of the time. An electric-assist bicycle is a realistic primary vehicle for me 95% of the time.

Sure, it's not as ideologically pure as an un-assisted bicycle, but it's a heck of a lot better than the station wagon I was driving a few years ago.

I'm a long time cyclist. I do huge pack rides, all day epic mountain bike rides, cyclocross races, fully loaded bike touring, etc. I had no car for a year and had to ride everywhere. Recreational riding and riding out of necessity are two different animals. I would certainly have appreciated a bike with electrical assist for all those mundane miles I rode without the company of other cyclists. Example: That 15 hilly mile ride home from work at 11PM in the dead of winter on mean streets after I'd been working on my feet all day.

Looks great!

To those dissing it, would you rather people drive a Hummer instead?

Anything that makes non-car transport easier is good.

Screw all the fighting...I want one of these bad boys NOW...when will these be available? Does anyone know?

Anyone know how much these will cost? or how fast the go?

By providing an honest, realistic, "gut" (for those fans of the Colbert Report) opinion of electric bikes and their prospects, of which I happen to say "ehh", I wouldn't exactly call that dissing.

But good that Anonymous read through the lines so clearly-- anyone ambivalent toward electric bikes must surely endorse Hummer ownership.

For people who have used biking to commute far longer than I, their enthusiasm is encouraging.

I have criticized some of the electric bicycles that have appeared on Treehugger. It's because they have been poor bikes not because they are electric. I am all for electric bikes but I have yet to see one that I would lay my money down on. A good one will appear one day, I'm sure.

I am yet another person that would benefit from an ebike. I have nursed for years, and have some on the job injuries that will, in all likelyhood, prevent me from any serious long distance biking. I also live in an extremely hilly port town. I want to abandon my car, and I even started riding the 5 miles to work, but the hills on the way back, mean I hitch a ride with the husband at the bottom of the hills. After riding all summer, I still can't push farther because of my previous injuries.

I have been pricing ebikes for months now, in hopes of gettin one by spring. I want to be able to do my shopping on a bike, too, and that just isn't possible given my physical condition right now.

I am very curious as to the price point of these bikes.

Indeed, to the original poster, this line of bikes would be perfect for me. I live in San Francisco, at the top of an insanely steep hill, in a hilly neighborhood. Going anywhere means wrecking my knees and spending more time trying to climb hills on a bike than it takes to walk. Eventually I just gave up and went back to using the car.

Thankfully my car runs on biodiesel (B100), but it would still be nice for cycling to be a viable option.

Sustainability = diversity

We've got 7+ billion different people on this planet, and no one form of transportation is going to be ideal for all those folks or for all situations. As I learned in elementary school, you've got to have the right tool for the job. This sexy electric bike is just one tool in the transportation toolbox.

But good that Anonymous read through the lines so clearly-- anyone ambivalent toward electric bikes must surely endorse Hummer ownership.

No, but what exactly do you want people to do? If they're not getting on a bike, they're using something else. Yeah, it's more "wasteful" than a plain old bike, but compared to a car or SUV? Come on.

For people who have used biking to commute far longer than I, their enthusiasm is encouraging.

I would be one of those people. You don't ride?

Riding bikes does not wreck your knees, it strengthens them. You'll do more damage to your body by not using it.
Be very cautious about buying an electric bike. Some of them are pure junk. Good luck.

I've checked out the StokeMonkey and it looks very good. It powers the crank not the wheels.
It looks as though it has to be used with an Xtracycle which is not a bad thing as it vastly increases the usefulness of a bike. The StokeMonkey starts at $1350. The Xtracycle is $399.
Install them on a KHS Urban-X, $329, for a total cost of $2078. That'll give you some idea of what a good electric bike should cost.

Is it possible to make an e-bike battery that recharges with human powered pedaling? That would be cool.

what's next - the trikke?

1) I've yet to see how many watts that front hub is. Hopefully someone reading this thread will know.

2) The 600 watt hub I had with a poor gel cell lead acid battery raised my average trip MPH 5-12. A motor means the bike becomes a faster mode of transport.

3) Photons to food to calories to expression of movement VS photons to battery to movement...guess what? As eMergy calcs go, the battery system comes out the same or better than food. Now, get that food shipped in 3000 miles, and the battery system wins.

Now, I'm planning on hopping on the non-electric bike for todays moving about. Tomarrow, when I've got a 15 mile one way trip, I'll hop on the electric.

Anyone know what the price range for this bike is? It looks like the best offering yet in electric bikes, on paper.

Go ahead, correct me if I'm wrong.

There is not enough power in your legs to power the bike AND recharge the batteries.
I looked for the power rating on the Schwinn motor but did not find it. I read many times that the average cyclist produces about one quarter horsepower which is approx. 200 watts. So if the Schwinn motor has at least that power rating, which it probably does , that would give you twice the power of the average human being. The problem with the Schwinn is that it powers the wheel. It doesn't use the power it has in the best way.
The Stokemonkey powers the crank and has a little over 400 watts of power. Check out the Stokemonkey site to get an explanation of why powering the crank is better than powering the wheels.
The Schwinn "looks" good but because it powers the wheels it could not be the best offering yet. That honor goes to the Stokemonkey.

The problem with the Schwinn is that it powers the wheel. It doesn't use the power it has in the best way.

Based on claims of a web page trying to sell you a stokemonkey.

Now, the lower revolutions of a wheel-mount translate to a need to have larger magents. More weight. But that doesn't translate to "power in the best way". And such an 'argument' VS hub motors is moot when you use OJ's oil-cooled geared hubs. 200 watts at that size looks like a geared hub in the Schwinn.

The Schwinn "looks" good but because it powers the wheels it could not be the best offering yet. That honor goes to the Stokemonkey.

Prove it. If anything, a hub motor is BETTER because you don't suffer friction losses of the suggested stokemonkey. But you've made the claim, so prove it beyond repeating a PR statement from the company that wants to sell you a stokemoney.

And a hub motor works are FAR more bikes than a stokemoney.

Wouldn't it be up to you to prove him wrong? Not him prove himself right? I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, but if you think he is wrong prove it.

BionX and a few other assist systems have regenerative braking - the electric motor helps brake the bike and in the process recharges the batteries a bit. You CAN put it in a regenerative mode where some of your pedal power is used to charge the batteries.

Regarding assist bikes - they have several niches. For instance, my bike commute use to be 13 miles each way and took me about an hour in each direction. If an assist could get my speed up to 20 mph, that would save me 20 minutes each way. In warm weather it might reduce the sweat factor a bit.

A lot of people might consider a bike for errands of a mile or two but not more. Assists open up the range for this group.

Assisted bikes fill a gap between regular bikes and scooters. They (hopefully) cost less than a good scooter and still provide you with exercise.

Anyone know what the price range for this bike is? It looks like the best offering yet in electric bikes, on paper.

No. But one can look at this:


Northern Tools Mongoose 450 Watt bike at $330.00

Drives the rear wheel via chain, it seems

It may be impractical to have the pedals recharge the battery while driving the bike (although perhaps it would be useful to have the pedals just recharge the battery and the drive ben full-electric?), but I bet there are still some other enhancements that could be made to increase battery life. For example: regenerative braking. As with cars, there's a lot of energy wasted in the braking process (which is why your brake shoes heat up). I'm sure there's some way this technology could be beneficially applied to an electric bike, and it would have exactly the same benefits it does for hybrid and electric cars. In fact, I'm very tempted to get one of these and try to install my own regenerative braking system.

A variably geared system such as Stokemonkey (or Cyclone, or a few others) will make the most of a small motor by allowing it to operate within its optimum RPM range over widely varying vehicle speeds. But people may have other criteria in identifying the best system, such as simplicity, low cost, ease of use, and so on, where hub motors may be more compelling than what variably geared systems offer.

Disclosure: I'm the Stokemonkey guy. It is not in my interest to sell Stokemonkeys to people for whom other systems are better suited. I recommend hub motors to people who just want help maintaining a certain speed in a narrow range of conditions. If you want to haul cargo in hills and still be able to go fast on the flat, however, variable gearing is priceless. The alternative is to start with a grossly overpowered (=heavy) single-speed motor and the batteries (=heavier) to make it go, at which point you no longer have a viable bicycle.

I would love a better electric bike, especially one that doesn't look that different from any other bike. About the only thing I'm dissapointed in is that it's still using a chain, why couldn't they design it around one of the more efficient shaft drives? Also curious what top speed is.. If I could get around 20mph I'd consider using it as a commuter bike and charge it at work.

I'm waiting for the electric shoes (so I can more perfectly do the electric slide), the electric gloves (for better grip) and the electric disposable shaver (wait. . .we have that). Hell, let's electrify EVERYTHING!!! Then the old and infirm who depend (from the comments in this thread) upon electricity to keep them in shape won't ever have to struggle at all! My lord! What did the old folks do for exercise before electricity? Think of the obesity rates "back in the day" - they must have been staggering!

I can see no reason why the Strokemonkey could not have regenerative braking. One of the nice things about regenerative braking is that helps slow the bike down and would significantly lessen the use of the brakes. A 50 pound electric bike needs good braking. If you gave me the choice between BionX with regenerative braking or the Strokemonkey without, I'd choose the Strokemonkey. I believe it would have superior range, regardless. It uses it's energy more efficiently and it's performance would be vastly superior.

Hi Todd, great to hear from you. Love your website. I'm sure you have given careful consideration to a version that can be used without the Xtracycle. My idea is to work with a frame builder (Surly?) and build a frame (Karate Monkey?) with the motor mounts welded on in the main triangle. For my own needs an Xtracycle equipped bike would be difficult to fit in the elevator where I live. I also relish the possibilities of a great handling Strokemonkey equipped bike. Thanks for your wonderful effort. The Strokemonkey is the only electric bike that I have seen that I would lay my money down on.

Shaft drives are not more efficient that chains. Chains don't slip and neither do shaft drives but shafts are way heavier so they can't be as efficient. Also, shaft drive would have to depend on some sort of internal hub gearing which is not as efficient as the good old derailleur. I saw a bike that uses a kevlar belt similar to the ones on cars that drive the camshafts, it was neat but it would preclude the use of a front derailleur and, again, it would have to use an internally geared hub. There's a new development of a really efficient constantly variable transmission from Fallbrook Technologies. This could be used with a kevlar belt and it wouldn't need a front derailluer. It's something with some great potential.

Tod Brilliant, you're a funny guy!

I have been using an electric bike now for 2 years..

My first bike cost me 350 $.. i'm on my 4th bike right now and i have just about 3000 $ invested in it, and it's just about as good as it gets ( Until battery technology catches up ! currently using NIMH )

I do not own a car, don't have a drivers permit and am 28 years old.. It's not because i canot afford a car.. it's simply that i don't need one .

I have a range of about 20 to 40 kms depending on how i use it.. and i love the thing !

I have rheumatoid arthritis and some days i simply canot pedal without pain.. so i don't pedal.. i use the motor 100 % to get to work and back.. if i'm in the mood for exercise.. i pedal without the motor. no one says you can't pedal.. it just gives you the option.

In 30 celcius summer heat.. i arrive at work fresh and clean.. ie: not sweaty..

Personally.. i think e-bikes are great !

Todd,

Very entertaining post. But please read this and get back to us:

http://www.ebikes.ca/sustainability.shtml

Your humour is a bit on the sophisticated side...

Okay, entries like those of Mr. Daigle do sway me a bit. If one is truly debilitated to the point that an E-bike is the only way to get around (aside from a car) then I can see the need. However, if E-bikes are marketed solely to those with extreme physical difficulties, there will not be a large enough market to sustain production. So, it comes down to a series of greater good questions - not so simple to answer any of them.

If an assist could get my speed up to 20 mph, that would save me 20 minutes each way. In warm weather it might reduce the sweat factor a bit.

As speed increases, so does wind resistance. So a 200 watt rig will be a great gain. The 400 watt unit give you a bit more of a boost, but not as great a delta as the 200 watter. Dig about with the Crystalyte speed charts to see watts vs speed.

The best solution would be some type of Velo Mobile

Assisted bikes fill a gap between regular bikes and scooters.

Yes, so ignore the "tod Brilliant" crowd. Because one day he'll have an electric bike.

Anonymous -

Interesting assumption, that I'll one day be riding an electric bike? A bit of a bizarre way to try to affirm your nebulous points.

Use Your Brain -

I don't know if you meant me (Tod) or Todd (Todd), but either way, I read the paper. Sorry to say that it is entirely flawed and admits as much on Page 3 where it confesses to ignoring all secondary effects, including exercise benefits and toxic waste issues. Ignoring these renders the entire calculation moot. To simplify things and suggest that pedaling causes increased human hunger and therefore food consumption - making electric bikes preferable is more than a little goofy, you must admit.

I will however, temper my earlier statements against the e-bike as I do see a limited use for them among the truly disabled. Before we invest in e-bikes, I think we should improve the traditional bicycle, as it is a long way from perfect (which makes the e-bikes modeled after flawed traditional bikes a bit silly). The Velo Mobile-style traditional bike is an improvement ergonomically but visibility issues remain without poles/flags.

200w is better than nothing.. but not much.

400w is better.. 1000w will get you up some nasty hills.. more is kinda like having a car that can do 100 mph when legal speed limits don't go that high.. up to the user's discretion..

I would like to see figures on how many electric bikes are sold per year in china/japan/etc..

vs Canada / USA.. i'm sure it's a staggering difference..

Even so.. as the price of gas goes up.. so will the popularity of e-bikes.

Time will tell.

A 200 watt electrical motor added to your 200 watt body would be more than enough to pedal 20mph. It's not that hard without a motor if you've got a light bike, can assume an aerodynamic position, and your big fits you well so that you can pedal effciently.

Attacking electric bikes... solely the domain of [some] treehuggers...

And you guys wonder where the stereotypes comes from.

Anonymous -

Interesting assumption, that I'll one day be riding an electric bike? A bit of a bizarre way to try to affirm your nebulous points.

Use Your Brain -

I don't know if you meant me (Tod) or Todd (Todd), but either way, I read the paper. Sorry to say that it is entirely flawed and admits as much on Page 3 where it confesses to ignoring all secondary effects, including exercise benefits and toxic waste issues. Ignoring these renders the entire calculation moot. To simplify things and suggest that pedaling causes increased human hunger and therefore food consumption - making electric bikes preferable is more than a little goofy, you must admit.

I will however, temper my earlier statements against the e-bike as I do see a limited use for them among the truly disabled. Before we invest in e-bikes, I think we should improve the traditional bicycle, as it is a long way from perfect (which makes the e-bikes modeled after flawed traditional bikes a bit silly). The Velo Mobile-style traditional bike is an improvement ergonomically but visibility issues remain without poles/flags.

Yes...one should. The more bicycles, be they electric assist or not means better road conditions for ALL cyclists. More bicycle parts, more accessories, and there should be less cost.

Well, I'd like to apologize for being overly flip back there in the 2nd comment -- I was a bit uncivil. To quote another commenter, this bike probably isn't ideal for everyone, but it probably is ideal for *someone*, which is a classic bit of long-tail economic thinking.
Biking may strengthen your knees if they are already healthy, but if you have damaged cruciate ligaments or other joint problems (cartilage etc.) it doesn't help.

I see an increasing number of electric-assist bikes at local shops, and this means there is a market, which means R&D investment. The rule of thumb is that the least polluting technology usually ends up being cheaper in the long run, which is a good inducement to pursue a "cradle to cradle" manufacturing policy, esp. as relates to the batteries; if we can get high enough energy density in some sort of recyclable cell, possibly derived from automotive research, that'd be great.

If we want to get more young people on them, we need a zeitgeisty marriage of style and aesthetics - the retro cruiser look doesn't exactly work there...I'd love to see Biomega do a take on this, an MN-style body with an enclosed shaft drive.