I'm a scooter rider who got my Yamaha Vino125 about a year-and-a-half ago, before I was really aware of the extent of the CO2 emissions problem. I was making the choice based on a desire to use less petroleum, since I generally knew that oil was bad and didn't know much about my options. I couldn't afford a hybrid at the time and my scooter gets better mileage than a hybrid anyway (approx. 65mpg for my Vino125 with my chunky 190lbs on it). Anyway, has anybody seen numbers on the CO2 emissions from scooters and how they compare to fuel-efficient cars? I'm on the waiting list for the EVT Z-20 and I've been enrolled in the City of Austin Energy Green Choice program since it began in 2001, so I think that should cover me going down to zero emissions once I can get the cash together to actually buy the EVT Z-20. However, I'm loathe to just dump my Vino125 that has treated me so well for these few years.

I heard recently during a talk on Paris (France) air pollution that motor scooters pollute almost as much as cars specially since they carry less people and do not feature catalytic converters ...

One analyst explained that even though the number of cars on the streets of Paris are decreasing, the pollution in Paris was stable because the numbers of motor scooters was increasing at the same time.

Is that true, did I understand things wrong ? If true it would really makes me reconsider replacing my car by a scooter !
=== author's response follows ====
Two-cycle engines, the sort you have to add oil to the gasoline for, are filthy little doggies it's true. But the modern 4-stroke scooters emit far fewer VOC's (volatile elements) emitted per mile of travel. Europeans were slower than the US in regulating the old 2-strokes out of existence and there are still many of the greasy 2s running the steets of European nations. If those number reflect the 2-stroke engined scooters it would make sense. Since very vew American cars have passengers the other metric you mentioned has no applicabilty. It is possible to put a catalytic converter on a motorcycle. Anyone know if USEPA currently requirs them?

As for C02 emitted per mile don't worry at all. Your 60mpg scooter emits at 60% less than any car made except a hybrid.
Thanks

--
editor note: It is indeed true that many scooters can have emissions that are worse than cars (not for greenhouse gases, but for PM, NOx, etc), though new regulations are phasing in in many countries and things should get better.

If you want to buy a scooter, we encourage you to inform yourself on the pollution levels of different models and consider buying an electric scooter.

Darnit, found the old conversation on Treehugger that followed this vein by doing a quick Google search. At least the Yamaha Vino125 is a four-stroke, but lacking the catalytic converter is probably awful. Anyone know where to find the numbers on CO2 emissions? I know the EPA keeps car and truck emission data on their site...

That Vespa is NOT $850...their cheapest scooter is still over $3k. http://www.vespausa.com/company/faq.cfm

Also, with reference to the pollution--remember that in most non-US countries (and California being the only exception in the US) scooters, like motorcycles, can go between cars in stopped traffic, thereby reducing the amount of idle time they spend in traffic. Even if the mileage per person were the same as a car, that benefit alone would save a significant amount of gas. I ride a motorcycle and in traffic I routinely save more than half the time it would have taken me in a car in urban traffic settings.

There are also a small number of electric scooters around if that's more your boat.
=== author's response follows ====
You're correct. Price closer to 3K. Original post used wrong currency conversion.

CO2 emissions directly track with fuel efficiency - so scooters obviously do well on that count.

Problem with them, as has been mentioned, is tailpipe criteria pollutants like NOx, NMOG, CO, PM, and HCHO.

A pithy summary of the latest rules, comparing motorcyles/scooters to light vehicles is here:
http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/roadbike/420f03044.pdf

Aha, thanks for the explanation and link, anonymous, that helps me understand the whole issue a lot more. Now I'm just waiting for the Z-20!

After some Googling I found that Vespa isted at gsmotorworks.com for $899. Not $850, but pretty close. link: http://www.gsmotorworks.com/PRODUCTDETAIL/c28_f733/Retro_Scooters/0.html

In our area, most of the new scooters I see are replacements for kids' bikes, rather than replacements for cars.

I've only seen one or two on the road all year, but there are two dozen of them zipping up and down the streets of our neighborhood with kids on them. God forbid they get any actual excercise!

They're all over the roads in central Austin. I see four or five different ones just about every day! Apparently I shouldn't be quite as excited about this fact as I have been though, I guess at least they're reducing green house gas emissions...

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editor note: They're also paving the way for cleaner scooters.

That is NOT a Vespa! It's a "Vespa looking scooter". BTW, I ride a Vespa LX 150 and I do believe it has a catalyst of some sort designed into the muffler. The 150 engine is a 4 stroke and part of the new L.E.A.D.E.R engine series which stands for something like "low emissions Advanced Engine ... something something". I'm on the waiting list for the Vectrix electric scooter however. www.vectrixusa.com

editor note: They're also paving the way for cleaner scooters.

Possibly, but take a look at India or Thailand for a counterexample.

--
editor note: True. Lets hope that once regulations in North-America force the main scooter makers to upgrade their anti-pollution systems, that these new cleaner models will be sold world-wide.

Seems to me that one of the main problems for scooter-adoption in some areas that could really use more of them (like mine, in NYC) is parking. I've just recently seen a couple on the street knocked over by cars.
=== author's response follows ===

Funny you should mention that. There's a press release on the Vespa USA sites that mentions that the firm has been petitioning some municipalities to provide special parking for scoots.

One setup I've seen that works well is in the gangway between two city buildings, if it can be worked out that the trash truck can get around. THe other is inside a curved cul de sac where no form of car parking really works too well.

There are scooters out there with catalytic converters and/or fuel injection. I know of five with both, the Aprilia Scarabeo 500, the Aprilia Scarabeo 50, the Piaggio X9 500, the Piaggio Beverly 500, and the new Vespa GT250. The Aprilia Scarabeo 250 has a catalytic converter but is carburated.
The Honda Silverwing 600, the Suzuki Bergman 650 and 400, the Yamaha Majesty 400, and the Yamaha Morphous 250 are all fuel injected but I don't know if they have catalytic converters. ALL OF THE ABOVE HAVE FOUR STROKE ENGINES.
There is one two stroke scooter with direct fuel injection. It is the Aprilia SR50 R Factory Ditech. The fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber at precisely the right moment so it should be extremely clean burning. Two strokes have traditionally "dirty" but they can be made as clean as a four stroke.
For freeway travel get a 400cc or larger scooter. A 250cc scooter can go about 75mph but it's size makes it marginal for freeway travel. Smaller than 250cc should not be used on the freeway.
I have the Aprilia Scarabeo 500. It will go almost 100mph, has 75 litres of storage space, and gets more than 60mpg. It is way more rapid than ANY car in urban traffic.
All of the scooters that I have mentioned above are twist and go. That means there is no clutching and shifting required, they're automatic.
They all have a constant velocity transmission (CVT) which is similar in principle to the tranmission used in the Toyota Prius.
If you want to play it safe go with one of the major brands like Aprilia, Honda, Piaggio, Suzuki, Vespa, or Yamaha.
The Aprilias and Piaggios are the best values. Piaggios are sold and serviced in the same dealership as Vespa. Aprilia dealers are far and few between but I have ridden mine over 9000 miles without a single problem.
There are many other brands on the market, most made in Taiwan and China. In most cases they are cheaper than the European and Japanese brands. The Taiwanese brands TN'G and Kymco have many dealers and as far as I know have a good reputation. Buy a scooter from a dealer that can service your scooter. Don't buy one from a bicycle store or a big box store, they can't service them. Don't buy one mail order or on the Internet.
Also, you've got to check out the Vectrix electric scooter.
It is a large, fast scooter with regenerative braking. Roll the throttle back and it goes forward. Roll it forward and it activates regenerative braking. The regular brakes don't have to be used nearly as much. Rolling the throttle forward when you're at a complete stop will put the scooter into reverse!!! Ingenious!!! The Vectrix is a large, fast scooter and will sell in the $8000 range.
There are two othe brands worth mentioning, Bajaj and Genuine Stella. There made in India and are the old classic Vespa design. They are manual shift. The Bajaj is four stroke and the Stella is two stroke. The Stella is not available in California but the Bajaj is. These are both very owner servicable which could be an useful advantage.
Almost all of the classic Vespa accessories will fit them so you can go totally mod. Oh yeah, Vespa is selling a retro version but it is not available in California.

=== author's note +++

Wow. Thanks.

Scooter are good. Gas however is passe, not renewable, and finite. Here in Portland we don't yet have a scooter business that sells electric scooters. One day we'll have Solar scooter charging stations around town.

In NE Portland Oregon, there's an "MC Electric Vehicles" retailer (mcev.biz). I test drove the "it" electric car. The sales guy said they'll soon be selling the Evader electric scooter. MSRP $2500 (www.evadermotorsports.com) .
I hope it becomes a reality.

i think you had mentioned at one point we do a new theme on transportation...scooters are hot.

p.s. the scooter in the pic is a TNG (twist and go) Venice, I own one and every detail that you can see is the same. google it, twist and go scooter, "venice" By the way, i dont recomend the Tng, ive had tons of problems with mine, I'd go with the yamaha Vino, more stable, Tng's gotten better, but not quite there yet. in a year or so tng will have it down i think

Regarding emissions for scooters, here's some info from Bajaj, (former) makers of the Chetak. I imagine newer models from the Piaggio group have similar numbers.

http://bajajusa.com/emissions.htm

Hi,

I'm interested in possibly buying a scooter. Due to distances I drive I'm interested in one of the larger ones capable of freeway speeds safly. But I've so far found no data regarding mile per gallon rates of these larger models.

The one I'm becoming most interested in so far is the Suzuki/Bergman 400 scooter. I have 2 dealers within 12 miles of me which is a improtant point for service.

Can anyone here tell me what sort of milage to expect with this model?

Thanks for any help you folks can offer me.

Craig

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the step-through motorbikes typically available in Asia? I think they're of much better quality and simplicity than the twist and go's. I'm also led to believe (if I'm reading it properly) that they're much cleaner.

http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/pgm-fi/p5.html

Craig,

I don't know specifically what a Burgman 400 get in mpg. but my scooter, a Scarabeo 500, gets over 60 mpg.
I would imagine the Burgman will do better than that because it has a smaller engine by 60cc. Said another way, the Scarabeo engine is 15% larger than the Burgman engine.
Another factor is weight. The Burgman weighs 437 lbs., the Scarabeo 515 lbs. That's a whopping 78 lbs. Less weight, less energy use, better mileage.
Both have fuel injected single cylinder engines.
The larger scooters with fuel injection get relatively better mileage than the smaller scooters with carburators. In other words, for their weight the larger scooters with fuel injection are more efficient.
For example, the carburated Vespa GT 198cc scooter gets 64 mpg. The Scarabeo weighs 207 lbs more but only gets 1 mpg less. The Scarabeo can go almost 100 mph while the top speed of the Vespa is 74 mph. The Scarabeo will keep you out of the car more because it is more capable of riding the freeways.
The larger scooters are also subject to more stringent emissions standards so they may pollute less than the smaller scooters even though they use more gas, except for carbon dioxide which is purely a function of the amount of gas burned.
If you are looking at 400cc scooters you should also check out the Yamaha Majesty 400. The Burgman 400 lists for $5899, the Majesty 400 for $5799.
If cost is not a sensitive issue check out the Burgman 650, $7799, and the Honda Silverwing 600, $7949. They have twin cylinder engines which are smoother and more powerful than a single cylinder making them less fatiguing to ride. Another advantage is the smooth ride of these two scooters. They are the only two scooters where the engine is mounted in the frame and does not swing up and down with the rear suspension.
On ALL other scooters the engine swings up and down with the rear suspension. This is bad for ride quality. My scooter, built the old school way, rides rough. It is enough of a factor that I sometimes opt to take the car instead.
Also check out the Vectrix electric scooter. It is about to be launched in the United States. I read somewhere that the price is going to be in the $8000 range. It is capable of 62 mph and has a range of 70 miles. If you don't have to use the freeway it would be ideal. Gasoline cost 10 times more than electricity and since it has no internal combustion engine it should be extremely cheap to maintain.
No oil changes, no spark plugs, no tuneups. Service on the Scarabeo is very expensive. The regenerative braking reduces the load on the regular brakes so brake pads should last substantially longer than on a gasoline powered scooter. The only regular maintenance items that I can see for the Vectrix are tires. This scooter would pay for itself.
It weighs 462 lbs so it is a substantial machine. It should be able to handle most roads and weather conditions. The reviews that I have read marvel about how fast it is. 6.8 secconds to 50 mph. I'm sure that's faster than my Scarabeo. The Vectrix and any scooter have the advantage of being able to lane split. You can get across town faster than ANY car without exceeding the speed limit. It seems to me that the company that makes the Vectrix is very serious and have spent a lot of time and money on it's development. Also there's the obvious benefit of it's low pollution. Sure, electricity is produced by burning hydrocarbons but the engines used at the generating plant are run under clinical conditions and probably pollute less per unit of power produced than any motor vehicle with an internal combustion engine.

Thanks for that Info Mr. Krpan!

Due to freeway useage I can't go with that electric though it sounds nice.

Very glad to hear your input regarding the Silverwing and Bergman 650. I was unaware of the engine mounting issue.
While cost is a factor perhaps if I wait till next spring I can afford one of those larger scooters.

Thank you again for your help.

Craig

I have a Kymco ZX50 that i bought for $2200 dollars US, at a reputable dealership in the Colorado Springs area. I have not had a single problem with it considering it is made in Taiwan. However when dealerships start selling moderatly priced electric scooters then I will buy one. I have yet to see one actually that is of good quality and will outperform gas scooters. I also heard that e-max quality is not all that great. Has anyone heard about evader scooters and their quality? I believe that electric scooters will soon reign supreme, but not yet.

You dont have to wait any longer for a high performance E-scooter. check out the E-runner / E-cruiser at Falconev.com
perf similar to 49cc gas, w/o the noise, pollution pipe, smell, etc...
evader is under powered and the z-20 is not available
E-max is bankrupt and had mech problems.
Also..dealerships will not sell E-scooters because they dont make $$ repairing them.
Repairs is how they make $$.

Who's to say an EV scooter won't have mechanical problems. I'm sure they can make money one way or another but who knows. I do hope the Chinese market doesn't get involved though, that would suck. Nice post Andy thanks for the info.

wrt the comparative CO2 emissions between scooters & _gasoline_-powered hybrids: the amount of CO2 in a gallon of completely combusted gas is the same whether it went thru a 50cc single-cylinder motor pushing a scooter or a 3cyl 1000cc hybrid cars engine: as someone else pointed out, catalytic converters don't change the CO2 output of a car, they cut down on the nasty byproducts that _harm_ the environment: CO2 is just what plants breathe. [IE: global warming doesn't come from driving cars, it comes from wholesale clear-cutting of rain forests & poisoning of the oceans... but that's a whole other issue]

The upshot is, if you're concerned about CO2 emissions [which anyone of intelligence who's read this far will no longer be... cow farts are more dangerous!] and want to know which vehicle puts out more of it, then there is no better means of comparison than the ol' MPG yardstick, since it purely measures how much fuel is burnt to go a distance, & therefore, indirectly, how many pounds of CO2 will be produced in traversing that same distance.

Since hybrids never get the mileage claimed for them, and it's a rare scooter indeed that gets less than 50mpg, the commuter concerned w/ CO2 is going to take the scooter every time, until the hybrids prove to be more practical, cheaper, and get better mileage.

But this whole analysis breaks down when comparing a gasoline powered anything vs. a diesel, diesel-electric, or other alt. fuel vehicle. Apples & oranges, as it were [only, more like HYDROcarbons vs. hydroCARBONS...]
;)

Does an electric scooter really reduce pollution or just move the problem elsewhere (i.e. power stations)?

I am very interested in the Z20 (actually the R-20) but they want either $500 or $1000 deposit for a scooter sight unseen. And I have emailed evtamerica 5 times for info and have never gotten a response. So one has to wonder if they are just executing an elaborate scam ??? I hate to be suspicous, but I live in Las Vegas where everyone has an angle. If anyone has delt with these guys please chime in.

I have sent in my deposit for the R-20! Hopefully I'm not a newly born sucker. I have looked around a bit on different sites and have seen some reviews and videos of the 4000E and 168 which are the lower power scooters put out by EVTAmerica, so I'm pretty confident that they are a legit operation. I get the impression that they are a pretty small outfit and I imagine they don't have any staff dedicated to customer service. After sending in my deposit, I was a little nervous, but eventually they sent me a form email saying that they had received it, which made me feel a little better.

I don't think they have actually started production. I think they are waiting until they get a certain number of orders before going ahead with production. But I think they are facing a chicken and egg dilemma. They don't want to start production until they have committed buyers. But buyers don't want to commit unless there is a product!

One of the things they mention in the contract is that if they are not able to deliver buy the end of the year, then you can ask for your deposit back. This does not help with the confidence in the product, but I like to think they are just being honest.

Anyway, just chiming in and hoping I can get my hands on my silver r-20 soon!

I'm possibly interested in buying this scooter. I'm about to turn ten. I have to talk to my parents about getting me one. what problems does it have email them to me.

I'm possibly interested in buying this scooter. I'm about to turn ten. I have to talk to my parents about getting me one. what problems does it have email them to me.

I know that both of my parents are considering using scooters to commute to work and for short distance errands on Long Island. However, their biggest concerns are the poor road designs, lack of traffic signals and awareness and the possibility of being creamed by the gigantic SUVs that are so prevalent on Long Island. Until our roads are better planned for bikes, scooters and pedestrians, we can't expect to see alternatives rise to their full potential. The Complete Streets bill offers some hope but more needs to be done in small towns, villages and cities and with more legislative and financial support from the federal government.