A Green Roof for the South Central Farmers?
by Jeff McIntire-Strasburg, St. Louis, MO on 06.19.06
While last Tuesday's eviction looked like the death knell for Los Angeles' South Central Farm, many of us in the Treehugging community have now shifted our focus, and began to wonder if there was a "win-win" that could be salvaged from this otherwise bleak situation. In response to a post at sustainablog (note: I am the author and publisher of sustainablog), a reader offered an idea that has the potential to make everyone happy: a green roof on the planned warehouse where the farmers could continue to plant and harvest their crops. Brian Green, the reader who suggested the solution, described it like this:
If [developer Ralph Horowitz is] building a warehouse, why not simply build up a stronger roof and have it be an earth roof where they can continue farming? Is that in some way illegal? That way you get the warehouse AND you get the farms. So what if you have to walk up a flight of stairs before you get there? Warehouse roofs are flat, cover it over with two feet of good earth and then plant away. Irrigation isn't a problem either. Just run lines from the water supply of the building. Put in meters. Done deal. In fact, I think more warehouses ought to be built with stronger roofs for precisely this reason. Can't they be retrofitted?In a subsequent comment, Brian expanded on the idea:
It just sounds like common sense. Think of all the flat buildings you see everyday. Think of all those warehouses. Certainly there'd be issues with the additional weight, but engineers get paid for that sort of thing.The response among the Treehugger staff, as well as the folks at Groovy Green, has been overwhelmingly positive: the word "brilliant" has been thrown around a number of times. While we recognize that this solution would require overcoming a number of challenges (the engineering of the building, the agreement of the developer and other involved parties, the satisfaction of insurers, etc.), we thought we'd solicit the feedback of our own brilliant readers. What do you think of this idea? Despite the challenges, do you think it's feasible? What other challenges might planners and developers need to consider before embarking on such a project? We're very interested in what you think about this idea! :: sustainablog and HuggImagine being able to turn all warehouses into gardens and parks. Could you imagine how much that would change a city? The view from above would be surreal. Imagine putting walking bridges between buildings. Imagine that the new public space is actually above ground level. Why not? It's the best use of the space.
The water runoff probably wouldn't occur at all if it was a garden. The plants would suck up the water greedily and the irrigation that would be used should be the ultra-efficient "drip irrigation" and therefore seriously cut down on the costs of water.
I think as people start to look at cities and want to use every square inch as efficiently as possible, they will begin to see the same things as I do.
To tell you the truth, I would love to see some people prove that just such a thing could be done, and be done profitable, for all parties involved.
I'm with Andrew. With so much attention on this piece of land, it would be perfect to try a roof top garden out, and b/c of the attention, it would be very important that it was done right, so roof top gardens may be viewed (by average Americans) as a viable positive option!
I would think that the positive PR that the owner/developer would get from this would be worth the extra cost to build it.
There may even be some subsidies available if the city or state offers some incentives for green buildings/roofs - I believe Chicago has this.
In Manhattan there is a skyscraper way down at the south end, and if you look at the top at night (from out on the water, or in NJ) you can see a cross of lights up there. It's a very old church that refused to give up its plot to the developers. In the end, they came to an agreement... they put the church on top!
Isn't William McDonough working on rooftop agriculture with his projects in China? Seems it should be technically viable - I'd imagine the landowner could do with some positive publicity too. Brilliant.
Perhaps some of the 16m raised to buy the land could be put towards the green roof?
This is my assessment just at a glance, sorry to be a realist:
The soil would have to be deep, wet, and you’d have to take into account the live loads of farm equipment and people. That’s a lot of weight and the minimum desired return on the kind of investment in cutting edge structures (think earthquake codes, large weird distributed loads, and lots of factors of safety) you’re talking about would never be realized. Sorry, from a civil engineer’s perspective this is not feasible at all. All the developers want is a quick, cheap, bare minimum kind of warehouse that will return their money fast. You’re better off investing your resources in a bigger farm somewhere else rather then attempting to maintain this. I understand their plight, but the land is just not that valuable to pour that amount of resources into it.
can we stop throwing the brilliant word around?
how could a normal roof support all that weight?
how would it work during earth tremors and earth quakes?
who would be responsible for the contents of the warehouse when the roof collapses?
who would be responsible for repairing this super-roof after it collapses?
what happens when there is a big rain and the soil increases dramatically in weight and the roof collapses?
what about when someone leaves the water running and it collects in the soil on the roof and the roof collapses?
this idea is far from brilliant.
Unfortunately I agree with Some Guy and Bobba. Although I think it's a fantastic theoretical idea and one we should work towards (light-weight soil, etc.) it certainly has problems, particularly since warehouses have such large clear spans (distance between columns). But in this case, it will NEVER happen; Horowitz stated in the LA Times that he wouldn't have sold the Farm to the farmers even if they had raised $50 million; he called them anti-Semitic squatters and basically hates their guts.
While farming on top of roofs presents large problems, lightweight passive green roofs (just a few inches of soil) DON’T and we should all encourage them!! We can still green the rooftops, although maybe not with the fantastic diversity of food products bulldozed at the farm.
most green roofs that exist in europe and in some american cities (minneapolis just got one on its new central library) are not used for farming and have a minimum of soil and biomass. but it could be done. you shouldn't try to cut out a farm and put it on an existing warehouse, but you can put greenhouses on top of buildings (great in cold climates)and do container gardening on top of almost every roof you can walk on. you could lay a network of walkways over weaker roofs and grow vines out of small pots. this green buffer zone would act as insulation and give shade, in addition to providing grapes, squash and all the other things that grow on vines. if you start with a new building you can of course make it strong enough to support a real garden with a decent layer of soil.
If you can have a public park at grade over an underground parking garage,then why not a community garden over an underground warehouse? Is it just a matter of cost, or are there technical problems as well?
LATimes, Wednesday, June 14, page B1, "LA Garden Shut Down; 40 Arrested" by Hector Becerra, Megan Garvey, and Steve Hymon
"'If the farmers got a donation and said, "We got $50 million, would you sell it to us?" I would say no. Not a ...chance,' Horowitz said. 'It's not about the money.'"
Sorry, folks. I don't think Mr Horowitz is interested in any community gardens anywhere near his buildings.
My landscape architect roommate forwarded this:
Green Roof Association
http://www.igra-world.com/home/index.html
and one of my favorite museums in NYC: If art can do it, why cant food.
http://www.earthroom.org/
An interior earth sculpture.
250 cubic yards of earth (197 cubic meters)
3,600 square feet of floor space (335 square meters)
22 inch depth of material (56 centimeters)
Total weight of sculpture: 280,000 lbs. (127,300 kilos)
Where have you all been? I work for a company that has installed hundreds of green roofs with about 12 or so used to grow vegetables, albeit on a small scale. This is not theory, it's a reality. The technology exists to do this on a large scale and we are involved in several projects that will be scaled in acres in the next 2-3 years.