The Joe Cell — A Fuel-less Energy Source?

The difference between this and, say, the telephone, electric light, and solar energy is that none of those things that really exist violate any fundamental laws of physics.

This is just a sprawling hoax.

As I said, it didn't make any sense to me, and am happy to defer to those wiser in such matters than myself. As with the Venom line of bicycles from Specialized, we do live in hope of cool replacements for gas guzzlers.

Fraud. Sham. Nonsense. Sorry!

My car runs on Chi.

Has somebody actually read about this? I have been following this whole 'free/zero point' energy thing for some time and I have to say this is one of the weirdest things around. I agree it is hard to believe, especially when they talk about the thing being influenced by people's moods and the appearance of time warps (no really!). But on the other hand, this is one of the most documented free energy devices on the web and from what I can tell this is not a single isolated case from someone who had it in a shed and it worked but then it got destroyed. This is a group of people who are busy with it and don't keep any secrets about it.

I don't think it is important if it violates any law of physics. It is far more important to find out if it actually works, we can deal with the physics behind it later. The laws of physics are not comprehensive anyway: how about gravity? We know it is there and that it works but we don't know how.

I think it is worth some attention and please people start trying this thing for yourself! I would if I had the means to and just imagine if it worked! There is a lot of information on the web on this subject. Just google on 'Joe Cell'.

Sander says: "I don't think it is important if it violates any law of physics."

And he's right. I mean, let's not allow science to get in the way of, you know, scientific discoveries. That darn science and all of its restrictive rules! Why can't atoms behave the way I want them to?

People, you can't be serious - that's just BS. Disappointed that you even bother to report it. (unless this is a kind of joke that missed somehow)

Aside: There-in lies the beauty of this being a blog, not a conventional media outlet. Debunking is near-instantaneous.

This has got to be a joke. The description of this device is an attempt to confuse us with technical sounding jargon that is supposed to impress us with it's complexity. Stephen Hawking couldn't figure this one out.

Mike

Apparently, 'negative electricity' is an important part of the process. And my personal favourite: "Cylinders have lengthwise alignment of magnetic-type swirl of frequency".

I hope that clears things up. Huh.

Steven Hawking could figure it out. He'd read the headline "A Fuel-less Energy Source" and he'd stop reading and go on to something else.

I think that's the thing I saw busted on Episode 53 of MythBusters last week

This is not something that science dosen't cover; this is basic electrolysis. Unfortunatly, despite bi-monthy miracle posts on Treehugger implying otherwise, attaching an electrolysis system to a car to generate hyrodgen and feed it to the engine is NOT going to give you a net gain of energy. Water is more stable then hydrogen and oxygen as seperate components, and as a result you have to put more energy into breaking it up than you'll ever get back. This is basic thermodynamics, and I would venture to guess that the people pertuating these myths simply lack the educational background nessecary to make these sorts of claims.

I'm a mechanical engineer in Charlotte North Carolina professionally working on alternative energy development, so believe me, I'd like nothing more than to see something like this work. While it sadly isn't as simple as a capacitor in a bowl of water, we do have a number of technologies that in tandem can go far to relieve our dependence fossil fuels, as this website has shown us many times.

It's helpful to remember that the laws of physics are man's attempt to understand the world around us. We are far from being able to do that, and if we think we've got it figured out, then that's all the more arrogance on our part, of the same sort that is leading us down a path of global destruction.

My jury is still out on this one, yet I am hopeful.

Dave,

We've mastered the basics. It's the spooky quantum-level stuff that's giving us headaches.

Einstein "replaced" Newton, but Newton's equations and 3-laws are still what everyone uses for everyday work.

Arthur C. Clarke, a very smart guy, said something I liked. I saw it on a video at Hugg.com called EQUINOX. He said Free Energy will go through four stages. 1) "It's nonsense,"
2) "It is not important,"
3) "I always said it was a good idea," and
4) "I thought of it first." I see 1 and 2 in these posts. 100 years ago if I told the average person about Nuclear power they would laugh at me. Even when it's big companies or trained persons, you see this is crazy posts. I think it's fine to cover the smaller guys. TH does the same for design. Why not power research? Sure, it might not work and you will probably never use some of the things the designers dream up. You might use, try it today and some day the world will change because the future is not more oil, burbs, SUVs and Walmart.

Best. Site. Evar.

All of the descriptions of how it works are rambling pseudo-scientific alchemical nonsense. Fantastic!

"The Joe cell is is an electrolytic capacitor." - okay, that may be true.

"It builds up a charge within, and ionises the vapour." - most capacitors just store a charge, they don't create one.

Then it gets great about "precharging water", about how it uses a battery, "which isn't drained in the process".

And how much power does the cell put out? Well, it's hard to say because, "A meter will discharge the cell." Classic!

For anyone who thinks this thing might work:

1. This is not some new technology that scientists are too arrogant to accept. Its just some metal in a jar with water. It can't make your car go. Please have more respect for science. It does make your car go.

2. You know that fuzzy feeling in your head when you read the description of this thing? Thats on purpose. Whoever made this thing up wants you to be confused so that you will believe it is possible to build one, but too complicated to actually do so yourself. You are being manipulated. Please be more careful.

Forget the laws of thermodynamics for a second, lets talk about the law of parsimony. Either a) spooky energy is bubbling up out of the zero point or b)these people are charlatans and/or kooks. Which explanation is more parsimonious?

Treehugger needs a science editor. Don't want to perpetuate the myth of enviros all being wacky luddite dropouts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsimony

Violates the first law of thermodynamics and is therefore impossible (and yes, I'm a physicist). Belongs in Book 3 of Gulliver's Travels, right alongside extracting sunbeams from cucumbers and reanimating dead dogs by blowing a bellows up their bunghole.

100 years ago if I told the average person about Nuclear power they would laugh at me.

If you told a nuclear physicist 100 years ago about nuclear power, they'd say "we're working on that." If you tell a quantum physicist about this stuff, they'll say it's bunk. The difference isn't what the average person thinks, it's what people in the field think.

If making energy was as easy as putting some metal in water and hooking up electrodes, they'd have done it by now.

Forget the laws of thermodynamics for a second, lets talk about the law of parsimony.

We obey the Laws of Thermodynamics in this household....

YOu don't even need physics for this one, just turn on your bullshit-o-meter. Anything that sounds too good to be true probably is. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean no one understands it.

Calling energy generated from the zero point field "free energy" is analogous to calling solar energy 'free energy'. It's not free, and you're not getting energy from nothing, so it's not a violation of thermodynamics in any way. The energy is simply leftover from the big bang. The specifics are nebulous, and only a very few physicists have actually dedicated significant resources to exploring this microcosm of the universe. (How's that for a juxtaposition?). The problem with ZPE is that it has been seized upon by the same crackpot science enthusiasts who more readily embrace alien abductions and perpetual motion than the scientific method. But believe me, there are a lot more outlandish theories being floated with straight faces among mainstream physicists than the 'particle virtualization' and 'half-filled photon states' which characterize the ZPF.

Hey, I've got one - we'll assume that Newton's Laws of Motion are immutable at all scales, and observing that there isn't enough matter in the universe to explain the motion of galaxies, we'll create a new form of matter which has no mass, does not interact energetically, but does exhibit gravitational effects. We'll call it dark matter, and spend billions trying to prove it exists. Ignore that crackpot over there talking about Modified Newtonian Dynamics.

Sorry, the antiestablishmentarian in me took over for a second.

I agree with mn. This stuff shouldn't be on TH.

For the people who follow this stuff and post about it, it's not about whether or not it really works, it's about the possibility that something out there might overturn the laws of physics and change the world as we they it. They don't want to understand it because it might burst their bubble. It's kind of sad, actually.

The world is full of transformative new ideas that should be understood and disseminated. This is someone's idea of a scam or a cult.

[AndrewKrause]: "But believe me, there are a lot more outlandish theories being floated with straight faces among mainstream physicists than the 'particle virtualization' and 'half-filled photon states' which characterize the ZPF."

True, but show me one respected scientist who's using Strings in his car to go watch earlier Big Bangs in alternate realities. These scientists are aware that these theories deal with phenomena not easily observed or used - humankind has already discovered most of the easy stuff. For example: making Fission usable (comes pretty close to an unlimited energy source) is a project that will take ~100 years and consume immense amounts of money.

In response to the last post (Krause), I do not believe this bunk device is talking about zero point energy, that's another issue entirelly.

Zero point energy is not something that you can ever extract work from, because it's the base energy level for everything. The second law of thermodynamics says that in order to extract work from a system, you must exchange energy from a high source to a low source. Zero point energy is the lowest you can possibly get, therefore you cannot extract work from it.

I agree very strongly with an earlier comment saying that Treehugger should have a science editor. I like this site a whole lot, but it hurts it credibility to make posts like this.

Icelander, a 100 years ago, physicists said in a few years, we will know everything and either theory was big. Nature and laws some guy made up are two different things. There was no e=mc2 100 years ago. Physics is a mess today if you ask anyone. I am not saying the guy is right. I am just saying open your minds a bit and stop thinking a science book is God.

Physics is just a language used to describe reality and is subject to revision.. but.. bullshit is a word in that language.

Wasn't this particular "free energy" unit debunked on Mythbusters not too long ago? For those not familiar with the show, various myths and outlandish scenarios are regularly and vigorously tested. For this one, they actually built the unit and attached it to the car. Lo and behold, the car didn't do anything.

I believe in keeping an open mind, but there's a difference between allowing new ideas and accepting any idea without scrutiny. Sorry, but this one doesn't just fail the sniff test. It fails real-world tests too. And that should be far more than enough to reject it.

Though the discussion of this post is sort of interesting sociologically, I'd like to propose that TH remove it from the site or preserve it for posterity in some sort of 'mistakes' section as a reminder to do a little fact checking before posting.

The activist and green left are for good reason characterized as semi-religious fanatic nuts long on self-righteousness and short on cool, rational fact. What makes TH great is its steady, practical approach to sustainability. A post like this, un-retracted, seriously damages its credibility.

I greatly appreciate that TH is a resource I can share with skeptics and republicans. I would hate to lose it.

@John: "Zero point energy is not something that you can ever extract work from, because it's the base energy level for everything."

The base energy level for everything is 0 Kelvin, or absolute zero. The ZPF explains why scientists can't ever seem to bring a system down to 0 K no matter how hard they try. The lowest they've ever managed is one ten thousandths of one millionth of a Kelvin above 0 K. Since there is a difference in potential between 0 K and that, then there is a capacity to do work. What we lack here is not imagination, but a practical means to exploit this difference. Voodoo technologists and perpetual motion mystics aside, I've seen but one proposal for tapping the ZPF field which resembles actual physics and not voodoo, and it depends on manufacturing tolerances on a microscopic scale that might not be possible for another decade. We'll have to wait till then and see.

In the mean time, I think we can agree that the Joe Cell is... not bloody likely.

I believe this topic was covered by the Simpsons:
(I paraphrased a bit. Thanks to SNPP.com)
Marge: I'm worried about the kids, Homey. Lisa's becoming very obsessive. This morning I caught her trying to dissect her own raincoat.
Homer: [scoffs] I know. And this perpetual motion machine she made today is a joke! It just keeps going faster and faster.

Homer: Lisa! Get in here.
[Lisa walks in, chuckling nervously]
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
-- The last straw, "The PTA Disbands"

I don't think there's any harm in posting this for comment, and I certainly understand the wishful thinking that encourages one to believe it. However, I agree that the post damages TH's credibility if it stands uncorrected.

I mean, I went through the Joe Cell wiki and someone was saying with an ostensibly straight face that the Joe Cell changes the weather of the locale where it is operated. This is just beyond goofy. And the link from TH will ensure that plenty of people are duped into thinking this is factual.

That confusion is ultimately detrimental to the environmental movement if people start thinking that our problems can be solved instantly by aliens and magic, rather than by technological and societal changes that require a lot of work.

I'd like to ride around on a flying unicorn as much as anybody, but I don't expect to find one in my garage.

Well, this is an interesting discussion, isn't it?

Look, I didn't say that the Joe Cell is working and everybody should start believing in it. And yes, I do know that there are a lot of scam artists in this field and a lot of nonsense. But what I wanted to say is that this perticular project stands out from the rest in that it is very open and well documented and I do think there are some strange things happening that deserve some more attention. Whether you can run your car on it or not.

And for everybody who says this isn't possible because it isn't possible (you know laws and such): please do some reading on the internet and find out that there's a lot more that defies the laws of physics - in whatever small margin that may be but there is.

Remember cold fusion? Everybody was convinced that was a scam. And yet somehow there are still hundreds of physicist busy with that same technology. They wouldn't be doing that if they weren't getting any results, it is just that getting consistent results is extremely hard. The Joe Cell could be just something like that.

Read 'The Hunt for Zero Point' by Nick Cook. He was an aviation editor for Jane's Defense Weekly. Very interesting stuff, which along the way makes clear why a lot of promising new technologies never make it to the public.

Someone can put out a generator fueled by 80s pop songs and rainbows and I will gladly buy it just as soon as I can see for myself that the thing works. I don't care how insane something is or against the laws of physics it is, if it functions, then it trumps our notions of physics. Ten years later, there'd be the Heisman Law of 80s Pop Songs and Rainbow Thermodynamics. It won't have been the first time that human understanding of science came after someone stumbled across a practical application and the scientists were left playing catch-up.

Do I actually believe that some wild-eyed guy asking for money for his infinite power machine has somehow discovered an unknown branch of science? No. But I'm always prepared to be proven wrong.

*sigh*

TH doesn't need a science editor -- it just wouldn't work.

What it needs is for its writers to be a little less credulous and a little more responsible. The writer's thought process looked to be as follows:

1) Ah! A Story that seems to be too good to be true.
2) Hmm. I don't understand it and have been blinded by technical jargon.
3) Publish and be damned!

Now, you don't need a science editor to tell you that 3) was foolish.

Here's a different argument for the non-technical audience (although I fully agree with the science arguments). Let's say this magic exists (excuse my bias haha). If someone could get a car to run on this sham, they would be selling it by the millions. They would become super rich. This includes the CEO of chevron or the mystery guys that keep this technology from springing up. Even governments have too many 'people' that are easily swayed by greed. The overall point is that if the device worked, we would be able to buy it at wal-mart. We wouldn’t be led to some weird website that only provides $39 manuals. Basic greed and capitalism should be enough to lead you believe that this stuff probably doesn’t work (let alone science) since we don’t see it being sold.

'Phantasmagorical': characterized by fantastic imagery and incongruous juxtapositions, from the noun, Phantasmagoria (an exhibition or display of optical effects and illusions.)

Wow. I'm staggered that so many took to this with such seriousness. Whoops. And that so many care about the credibility of TreeHugger. That is at least a great thing.

I assumed, unwisely it seems, that a post on a machine that purports to runs on vapours or Orgone would be treated with a very large dose of circumspection.

Did we say, at any point, that a Joe Cell was the answer to our prayers and we should all rush down to our auto-parts store and fit one right now? Not as I recall. Did the guys at the linked sites of PESN say it works? No, they seemed similarly cautious. I thought I'd peppered the post with enough suggestions it was unlikely to be kosher, such that no poor unsuspecting TreeHugger was going to immediately assume this was the next Big Thing.

But my obvious failing, is that my talent for irony is about as deft, as that of the much lampooned Alanis Morissette. A skill I'll need to refine.

Why post it then? Because it was odd ball, wacky, and not yet one more serious story on biodiesel or electric hybrids. And, to paraphase Albert Einstein: the thinking we need to get us out of this mess, has to be different to that which brought us here in the first place.

I am intrigued by the amount of emoting there is on this subject. Critical thinking. It's not the thinking part I find so intriguing but the critical part.

Who knows all the secrets of the universe? Is anyone else ignorant of some things along side of me?

While not one of us has seen a Joe Cell or know how it might work would it be a bad thing to keep open minds and watch, maybe hope we learn something new that would benefit mankind (us!) LOADS?

Who laughed at Gallileo (sp?), Columbus, or Alex G. Bell when they exclaimed "Eureka!"? Just about everybody.

For myself, I'll admit my ignorance, and hopefully watch the development of this Joe Cell.

It may come about that this is debunked or not at the seminar in Salt Lake City on July 30, 2006. You can check out more on the seminar at "http://pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/". I don't propose paying to attend this event, but do pay attention to the press following it.

This is not zero point energy, but energy from a source of which man has no current understanding. It is actually much like solar energy, but at a much higher frequency. I know many of the people supporting this 'technology' sound like crackpots with their 'emotional energy' opinions and such, but don't verbally debunk ideas of which you simply are ignorant. This is evil. Skepticism is a good defense mechanism, but try to use it in a positive way. Too many truely revolutionary advances in science have been hampered by ignorant nay sayers. It is one thing to protect your fellow man from scam artists by telling them it is bunk, but it is another to do so simply out of an inability or lack of desire to understand.

The problem with the people who are proponents of these kinds of "advances" in technology is that they will never allow their supposed discoveries to be disproven. Any attempt to disprove the device (by building one and showing that is doesn't work) will be thrown into one of three categories:

1) You didn't build it correctly.
2) You couldn't build it correctly because "they" (the Oil companies or the government) got to the instructions and modified them so the device would fail.
3) You are one of "them" (the Oil companies or the government) attempting to cover-up our discovery.

In that manner, the so-called invention will persist in myths and legends for centuries to come even though it is a bunch of BS.

Mythbusters is bullshit. The truth is coming out. I believe that the Joe Cell is really just a variation on Stanley's working device. Check out the video of Stanley Meyer riding around in a dune buggy that uses WATER for fuel. These devices are not myths. They exist and the government has known about them for a long time and have been lying to us. Screw the government!

Joe Cell
http://www.joecell.com.au/

Stanley Meyer’s car that runs on water
http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

Francisco Pacheco’s generator that runs on water
http://www.fevj.org/FEV-Pacheco-generator.php

Ever heard of polar oppisites?

Their was an individual who beleived that an electron has an opposing charged particle, unfortionally the name has been used to describe many types of science fiction (both written and in film) called a "positron"

This is considered a "real" particle folks. It is considered to be devoid of mass and having such a short frequency, that it can "breach" electrostatic ionization fields (molecular barriers that keep you from putting a hand through a keyboard and other "solid" masses).

It has also been stated that if you were to "breach" what is called a communicable barrier, you would get a complete annihilation of both the positive and negative charged "static" environment that both types of energy exist in, including each other. In other words it causes in a pressurized environment (such as the one we live in) a;

(1)lack-of-mass"
(2)imbalance in pressure versus vacuum
(3)Matter -anti matter reaction...... take your pick.

Point is, the temporary "increase" in low pressure versus higher "atmospherical" pressure is what can be called an "imbalanced state"

An engine is nothing more then a fancy pressure, vacuum "regulator", this regulator uses two well known states of pneumatics: pressure & vacuum

Pressure is used to compress x:1 (where x= the cubic centimeters of volume) versus one cubic centimeters of space within a given volume. shape is not relative however for ease of design wear and as equal a distribution possible for a reciprocating (up and down motion) engine, a cylinder was chosen.

Top-Dead-Center (TDC) is considered the absolute maximum potential for an exothermic based reaction, whereas the Bottom-Dead-Center (BDC) is used as the lowest potential and is simply used as a means to cycle "in" air fuel mixtures) (old design) or simply air (fuel enjected models) to achieve what we use as an engine for todays world.

But an endothermic reactionary motor?

An engine is capable of this because the ignition timing is advanced to the point where the intake valve has closed and the stroke is just getting ready to "compress" the air/fuel mixture taken in. the timing can either be "waaay" advanced (firing after TDC) or for less problems, "retard" (fire before TDC) to keep the rang of motion needed by the distributor from having to travel so far.

In any event, in an endothermic reactionary motor, you are "expecting" a sudden decrease in pressure within the cylinder(s), in a reciprocating motor, the action of the pistons causes a "back pressure" that is vented by the PCV (positive crankcase ventalization) valve back into the intake manifold or "carb" (for you non-mechanical type people)

This means that the engine may be "loosely" sealed from the outer environment, the truth of the matter is, the engine is a atmospherical or "open" designed model and can be affected by pressure differences (high altitude versus low altitude)which means an endothermic reactionary engine (when having ignited or "breeched" the communicable barrier) causes an immediate vacuum, and as long as the springs of the valves and the valves "properly" seat, the strong vacuum made from this reaction pulls the piston foward to compensate or "equalize" the pressure differences. "however" you must not ignore the "pressure-potential" caused as well.

when you have a vacuum, you also have the atmospherical pressure "surrounding" the vacuum itself that exist on this planet working upon it as well (thats why a sphere works best for a vacuum chamber). This means that not only is the piston moving to compensate for the decrease in pressure within the cylinder chamber itself, you also have the pressure "pushing" the piston upward as well from behind the piston. a sort of "2-for-1" effect.

This is easy physics folks, not hoodoo or mythical in origin.

BTW when the annihilation happens, it will release a strong EMP field effect that can and does affect positive based digital circuits (since most digital circuits are based upon a 5-volt +/- type of "square wave", since this is a "negative" based reaction that the engine is producing, the effects would be:

(1) sharp spike in power due to the sudden decrease in negative polarity causing a sudden rise in positive charging

(2) a "dampening" field whereas the communicable
barrier becomes a more effective dielectric thereby preventing electrical current from flowing

(3) intermediant digital equipment operations (due to one or both or a mixture of the above..

These are but a few examples.

The purpose of this post is to help remove some of the "new agey" type of methos being used.

Personally my historical studies have shown that we have discovered this principle before, but the physics and training were next to none therefore it was named "something" to refer to it (i.e. Orgone, bio-rhythmic energy, life force, etc...)

So I'm not "knocking" them for trying to explain it (the thing does work you know?)

Oh on the note about "human negative energy" affecting a joe cell and so forth?

Remember that we are a "dipolar" object, we have a negative pole at our feet, and a positive pole at our heads, our body is made up of mostly "water", and we have red blood cells (lots of them)

A red blood cell has a single iron molecule that is used for the oxidation processes, this means it has a weak magnetic attractor happening.

take an inductance and capacitor reading of yourself "at rest", then go on a jog or get really mad about something, wait for the endorphine kick to get the blood rate up, and then take another reading, you will be surprised by the results.

anyone remember what happens to iron when accelerated in a heated or molten state?

Just because you lack the means to describe what you see, does not mean it is any less possible to become or is a reality, only the tools and communications need to be refined..

James A.

the second law of thermodynamics is not written in stone.
the laws of physics are not written in stone. they are rediscovered, reiterated and re-done-over as verified valid information is added.

joe cell is one of these things that get to suffer due to people claiming that laws are written in stone.
shame.

Interesting topic here. I'm actually using a variant of the Joe Cell design to feed Hydrogen into the air intake of my car. The idea isn't to replace my petrol consumption, but instead to generate more power and cleaner fuel consumption. From what I've seen in one week of testing, it's working relatively well (for a first prototype).

I believe the Joe Cell is a bunch of bull. Everything about it is too cloudy. Nothing is actual stated about it. It's the whole reason you can't buy one pre-built. You have to build it yourself. Why? Cause it has to be perfect, and building it yourself leaves room for error, allowing the creators to blame YOU for a non-working device.

On the other hand, you can't think of everything scientifically. Let's say that they had precise instructions on how to build one, or buy one prebuilt. The main concept behind the Joe Cell is that it uses Orgone, which is metaphysical energy. Science will never disprove that. Just like they'll never disprove the existence of ghosts or evil spirits. IF Orgone is real, then there is no reason why the Joe Cell wouldn't work. It would just be something that science couldn't explain.

Let me end by saying that the Joe Cell appears to be nothing more than a well designed electrolysis machine. I believe that the videos we see of the Joe Cell in action are actually occuring because of high amperage. (As said before, I use a variant to supplement my air intake. It is hooked up to my car battery.) Stainless Steel Piping is just too expensive to use for such an application. And the amount of time it takes to get the Joe Cell to a breeding cell is too long. I would not waste my time and money on such an experiment until it can be successfully documented (vague patents not withstanding).

Bottom line is that the Joe Cell displays some interesting attributes of electrolysis. With a bit of modification, the process can be even more perfected. And I can personally state that a variant of this device makes a decent supplement to our current fuel--but at this time can not replace it.

guys... those of you who simply scream that this notion is heresy are the same bunch that would be screaming that the world is flat back in yesteryear. disruptive technology typically is called heresy at first anyway. information changes -- and that inludes science. you people crying about the violations of physics laws today should look back in history and see what people considered a violation in th past. try doing it without laughing, it's hard. the one guy who said let's see if it works first and then worry about the physics is a little more closer to what makes the most sense. if you've ever tried doing something that no one else has done before, then you realize how silly it is to use old perceptions to justify a new disruptive concept. otherwise we'd all be sitting here today talking about how flat the world is.

A real scientist doesn't dismiss anything out of hand, no matter how outlandish it sounds to his deeply entrenched views of the natural world. If he did, we'd still be laughing at the preposterous idea of atoms, or Einstein, or any of many visionary scientists who were scoffed at out of hand but bucked the mainstream long enough to prove all their critics wrong - and thus change science forever. It seems this is a cycle; old hardened minds in science represent clergy rather than science.

No, a real scientist, tries to duplicate experiments, does experiments and then draws his conclusions. He is equal parts rational and observational, and so, must satisfy both rather than just one.

This story is not a hoax- build one yourself and see- don't just follow the herd mentality...

look at this one.
When water can burn a lot is possible:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3299610356332390298&q=water+engine&hl=en

Whatever it is, it's not Zero Point Energy, and has absolutely nothing to do with the legacy of Tesla. I did my research on the field, studied some physics, and am pretty sure that this project here has absolutely no connection with any current fields of science.

In case it DOES work, it can be best described as magic, or alchemy.
I don't think one should downright deny the possibility of this working, but as for myself, I approach this with high skepticism. Maybe I'll try to build one, doesn't sound too hard to do.

Is there a working Joe Cell in Sydney allready?

I have been doing some reading on the joe cell and also stanley meyer and his hydrogen on demand for cars. Some guy in clearwater fla. has seemed to duplicate this process of hyd on demand or something very close. If stan meyer did come up with some way to fracture water. Why cant anyone else duplicate this?? The guy was granted patents so obviously he did somthing different. You can check this stuff out at hytechapps.com and waterpoweredcar.com

I have to comment,,,

You all must seriously put your textbooks on the shelf..
The jcell might be misunderstood.. I know Peter Stevens pretty well, and through Peter I know alot of Joe Blo. Admittedly Joe was trying to build a electrolytic cell to generate hydroxy on demand.. in his words "trying to save money on gas"
Electrolysis was in mind when the thing was built. It has been proven over and over that adding hydroxy to the fuel charge of an internal combustion engine will improve the flame front propagation and may improve power and milege.. how much depends on your engine design, wear, e.t.c..

Fact is there are thousands of these instaleld in cars and improving performance.

I have a jc variant in my vehicle and it works great.

Now running without gasoline is another story and I dont believe the jcell will do it. Perhaps there was fuel left in the bowl or fumes being pulled from the recirculation system back ino the engine.. This could confuse even the smartest to thinking something special is happening.

Fact since installing the unit in my vehicle the milage is great, the exhaust smells like laundry, and the engine idles very smoothly..

All of these are proovable facts. Now the exhaust has not been tested "only by my nose anyway" but my odb2 scanner shows very clean exhaust.. That alone is makes the whole thing worthwhile.

My personal feeling is that Joe and Peter would like nothing more than to get as many people expirimenting as that is how efficiancy is established.

Fact= electrolosis makes hydrogen from water. (get some spoons and some water if you dont believe me)

Fact= A car can run on hydrogen gas the same way it runs on an air fuel mixture. (People who have seen the mythbusters episode know this)

Put two and two together. If you could make a cell powerfull enough to produce enough hydrogen from the water then the car would run.

Heres where things go down hill. Im not exactly sure how much hydrogen a gallon of water can produce and if it would produce enough to power a car. As for the mythbuster episode their cell was pathetic. It had less bubbles going than a simple spoon cell in a 6th grade science experiment. While there are cell foam over with bubbles, so if those powerfull cells make enough hydrogen then i dont see why it wont work.

"And how much power does the cell put out? Well, it's hard to say because, "A meter will discharge the cell." Classic!"
loool, that is just like religion. It has nothing to do with science anymore. Thats is the reason why you get replies like "another stupid moron" when you try to give evidence that this thing and other free energy devices are bullshit. It is the same when you post to Christian topics in a logical manner. By the way I am an atheist and a German electrical engineer :)

This is not a hoax. I am an active experimenter with Joe cells. I did get a power increase from a vehicle's engine and working on going gasless. I believe this does violate laws of physics, since physics only deals with explosive/destructive reactions. When the science begins to recognize the other side of the coin, implosion/creation, then they will begin to understand. Read up on Viktor Schauberger.

Also hydrogen boosters work because they permit the engine to burn fuel that normally goes wasted, getting burned up in the catalytic converter, not in the cylinder where it can do work. All you thermodynamic quotin engineers should be able to understand even that.

thanks,
Kel

If you want to read some fresh thoughts on our collective observations of matter and energy, I *highly* recommend the following site.

http://www.glafreniere.com/matter.htm

It's 20-some pages and a good read. The reverence some here have for Einstein may be misguided. In fact, history may regard him as a pariah that set back true understanding by a hundred years.

We seem to be coming out of that dark age...

Look how arrogant mankind has become. We think that we know everything. This is how the scientific community thinks all the time: "If it can't be explained by our laws then it is a scam or a hoax." Did you guys ever stop to think that if our scientific laws were perfect and complete then we would be able to explain everything in this universe using those laws and find solutions for all our problems and be able to travel the farthest reaches of this universe by building machines that work on our perfect scientific laws and we would probably live for ever. Since we have not yet reached that stage it just goes on to show that our science is still not perfect. There are still a lot of new things science has to learn. Anybody who thinks otherwise just look at how imperfect our prediction of the weather is, we still can't predict earthquakes and other calamities. We haven't even travelled very far out into space yet. There are scores of diseases not yet cured (or pretending to be "not yet cured"). We don't even have control over our own life, we all still die, we can't control pollution effectively, or the population. or protect our flora and fauna. If all you arrogant scientists think that their science is perfect and complete then I want you to get rid of all these problems first and then come here to post then I would be the first one to support your views.

Sometimes a little humility helps in opening our eyes to new possibilities. We might not be able to explain it yet but that does not mean that new ideas and inventions should be ridiculed by using our present half baked science as a yardstick to measure its validity. What if it uses a principle or a form of energy not yet discovered by science? Learn to look at things with an open mind... Just a causual look at the history of science will tell how many of the discoveries that is so important to us now has been debunked as hoaxes and lies in the past. Remember it was people with this same arrogant mentality who debunked those ideas then because they believed that their scientific laws were perfect and infalliable. And history always keeps repeating itself in a endless cycle.

For those who cannot understand the thermodynamic laws, try the business law, " If it seems to good to be true it usually is".

The professor on Futurama has invented better machines with more reasonable explainations.

I think there is enough material published to establish that existing science will not permit this device to work without fuel.

People who still believe in it should put their money where their mouth is. However i would suggest that most successful inventions are a capitalisation of existing scientific principles.

Comment Suggestion:
Before submitting a comment like "fraud, scam" give reasons why, facts, insights and what were your personal or background experience.

"Science doesn't care who is right or wrong."

DH
www.davidhenryco.com

hi jus a comment, my grandad is now 80 i dont know if this will meen much to you but when he was a boy he lived in australia. and as he grew up he told me a few years ago now. that he remembers a car that could run on water and that Shell the oil company bought his designs soon as he finished. I was young then and i asked y he said because oblivously now i realise they wanted people to buy the fuel.

if he were still around i could give u more information like the name of him so really this is not good info soz

Ok, going back to those silly laws of physics, such as conservation of energy and all that old rubbish, lets just say this thing uses the electricity from the car battery to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, its called electrolysis. These gases burn but at maximum can only give the same energy as taken from the battery, nothing gained here.

These gases are burned in the engine. After all the friction, heat and motion of the car what energy is left will charge the battery, so an overall loss and the whole cycle goes round again, slowly draining your battery of charge.

So, yea, it will power your car, for about 20 yards before the battery goes flat, but that is not magic, it's stuff you did in school physics lab but hey, if you think it is energy from nothing then a can of coca cola is a "meal cylinder immersed in liquid", maybe you can plug your telly into that and prove me wrong.

I just ran across this site, and to say the least, it is funny how narrow minded some people are. Does the joe cell work? I don't know, yet. More on that after mine is working. I'm not a scientist. So thermo dynamics, etc, don't mean that much to me. Do we know everything about science? Physics? Remember, it's what you learn after you thought you knew everything that counts. First, the joe cell was given to a researcher at a college in ausrtalia. He couldn't explain how it worked or why when the engine was running on the cell, it weighed less, but it did. I made a "no fuel" engine that used high temp vegetable oil . I built it using off the shelf parts (mostly), and it produced 25 hp. Within a week, i was told by friends, they nwere being asked questions about who I was, where was the engine, etc. (cont)

I haven't built another prototype. Could've been coincidence. I belive the story about "Joe" being visited. and about the rest, here's some food for thought. The baghdad battery, over 2000 years old. similar to the joe cell. The water cannon, can shoot through 20 feet of solid rock . The coral castle, this guy moved 30 ton slabs of coral . and the only tools he had were made from stuff out of a junkyard. Yet, a couple kids, apparently unnoticed, saw him working one evening, and he was floating the slabs of coral. An electromagnetic engine developed in the early 70's that ran on a six volt motorcycle battery and ran 6 months without needing recharging. Rife built a frequency machine a the cobalt microscope and could kill any cancer he could his hands on in the 1930's. I know a lady that cured herself of beast cancer after the doctors wrote her off with this same machine. Regular science says it won't work, but it did. As far as the joe cell, I'll make up my own mind, irregardless of what the experts say. I've found that most of the time, you're better off doing exactlu opposite of the experts opinions.

Even a yorkshireman knows you can't get "ought for nought"

I've never seen a site before with so much drivel from both sides. Its a pity people can't find a better life than sitting in front of a monitor for their liesure.

There once was a thing called a Null hypothesis
it had a friend called the Alternate Hypothesis

if the null hypothesis was rejected you had an opinion, if it was accepted you had an opinion, but these were not a truth, statistical is all......... All science is based on these friends. Once upon a time there were only white swans, but one day someone saw a black one, did that mean it was new to existence?.... Maybe, or maybe it just had never been discovered/reported/noticed/affected or conceived before.
A scientist rejects nothing except to their peril. Even Einstein fudged results to save himself ignominy from the scientific community about one of his ideas, Stephen Hawking made reparation to create the proof so killing steady state theory for universe against nothing before allowing POSSIBILITY of DOG! Dodge that possibility doubters...lol.... a zeroith god... hmmmm This is great debate, test and discover,do it for yourselves, that is what makes scientists and humans.

There once was a thing called a Null hypothesis
it had a friend called the Alternate Hypothesis

if the null hypothesis was rejected you had an opinion, if it was accepted you had an opinion, but these were not a truth, statistical is all......... All science is based on these friends. Once upon a time there were only white swans, but one day someone saw a black one, did that mean it was new to existence?.... Maybe, or maybe it just had never been discovered/reported/noticed/affected or conceived before.
A scientist rejects nothing except to their peril. Even Einstein fudged results to save himself ignominy from the scientific community about one of his ideas, Stephen Hawking made reparation to create the proof so killing steady state theory for universe against nothing before allowing POSSIBILITY of DOG! Dodge that possibility doubters...lol.... a zeroith god... hmmmm This is great debate, test and discover,do it for yourselves, that is what makes scientists and humans.

I read this with excitment as they were doing experiments with this type of technology at my former university in Belgium.

I must ask if anyone here who was so quick to call 'hoax' made any attempt to explore this themselves?

I know that it is much more simple to say something is a hoax than to explore it. These devices can be created for very little cost and with very little knowledge. It does require patience to get them to work but I have a lawn mower and small tractor running on this technology. I have also been able to get a truck working using something very similar to this Joe Cell yet do not keep it connected due to local laws.

If anyone out there with a scientific background would like to explore this please contact me. It is so sad to see so many people call something a hoax without exploring it themselves. I would be happy to donate a test unit and/or the money required to make one to anyone with a serious interest in exploring alternative energies.

Why is nobody saying the obvious? Just show us proof! I don't care what laws it defies...just drive your "Joe car" over to my house, honk the horn, and I'll come out and go for a ride with you. But until that happens, none of us should be so foolish as to take a $50 "instruction guide" ride.

Why is nobody saying the obvious? Just show us proof! I don't care what laws it defies...just drive your "Joe car" over to my house, honk the horn, and I'll come out and go for a ride with you. But until that happens, none of us should be so foolish as to take a $50 "instruction guide" ride.

All the markings of a scam, and we saw this sort of thing back in 1981 when gas prices were high as well.

They aren't selling cars, or even a generator for the gas. They are selling PLANS on how to make one. Since most people can't even screw in a light bulb without professional help, they can count on selling lots of PLANS and never having to worry about people actually building one and finding it out doesn't work as advertised.

Does the concept "work"? Theoretically, you can separate hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis. Storing them together as a combined gas is very dangerous, as it is basically an explosive at this point. One spark and it will make the Hindenberg look like a campfire (because most of the flame on the Hindenberg was the covering, not the hydrogen - without a lot of oxygen, it is hard to combust.

So, assuming you can use this gas and burn it without blowing yourself up. Then why not? Well, because the cost of making hydrogen through electrolysis is far more than $4 a galllon we presently pay fo gasoline. In addition, storing gases is not easy. You'd have to compress it (explosion hazard again) and build a high pressure storage cell (heavy) and even then, your range might be 5 miles or so.

All the "free energy" scan artists have several things in common: They are looknig for "investors" or selling "plans" rather than sellnig product. They claim the "big oil companies and the government" are trying to suppress them. They never come to market with a product, although they promise one "any day now".

Search on compressed air automobiles - that was the last one of these deals.

I would like to paraphrase Dr. Stephen Barrett, operator of www.quackwatch.com.

Lets presume that the inventors of this machine are right. It produces an unending supply of energy from a previously unknown source. Its clean, its green, and it will power the word for as long as we need it to.

The inventor has two options.
1. Patent the thing and then perform a controlled study or demonstration, in public and refereed by reputable scientists. (Probably have to do this a few times because the referees you really want won't come to the first demonstration.) Following this route leads to international acclaim, ulbelievable wealth (through patent licensing), and at least the nobel prize in physics but maybe peace too depending on how liberal your licensing is.

2. Sell plans of this invention on the internet for $50 a copy. This gets you $50 for every succer that believes in your idea, not counting the ones who pirate it off their friends.

One would have to believe that anyone smart enough to really invent the thing is smart enough to pick option one over option two. Unless, of course the invention doesn't work -- in which case option two is the only choice. Apparently option two isn't that bad either.

you don't have to believe if you want to warren mclaren people with such narrow minds are hopeless or just jealous what other did

you don't have to believe if you want to warren mclaren people with such narrow minds are hopeless or just jealous what other did

Why is it that the "widest minds" have the "narrowest grasp" of how express themselves?

Remember- If it's written on the internet, it MUST be true.

"Mythbusters is bullshit. The truth is coming out." YIKES! What a nit wit...

Unlike the rest of you, I am actually going to try the experiment BEFORE I denounce the results. BTW, did you know, the world is flat.

Ok try to think outside the box people, I well versed in the laws of physics but the point you are all missing is the energy stored in one atom of hydrogen when released is greater than that is used to separate it from oxygen.

We are talking 3 times more energy it is the in efficiency of how we exploit the energy of hydrogen, and the fact that keeping the hydrogen separated from the oxygen molecules that keeps you inside the BOX!

tell him to put up or shut up.

8 billion people
2 billion use FF transportation. ( those 2 mil are in trouble , no?)

and 100,000 snake oil men/ women.

no time to review them all , just tell them send it to me and shut up until i test it.

see?

if they can't produce a sample then it is not real.
next, only 99,000 left to go.

RIP.

Most of these responses remind me of that commercial where someone dressed as an aristocrat from Columbus' era states
"The world is definitely flat".
We all (well most of us) know how that turned out.

Flying Machines? Call the mental hospital.
Voices Thru The Air? Call the mental hospital.
Atom Bombs? Call the mental hospital.
Electricity? Call the mental hospital.
Ships that travel underwater? Call the mental hospital.

The theme is ALWAYS the same.

The reason you cant buy this in the states I'm told is it's illegal. Any major country that stands to make tons of money from oil, has made this product illegal. I've also been told that Canda mandates this on most Tractors used for transporting goods... dont know if the latter is true or not. I dont know if this idea will work or not, but me and a buddy are giving it a shot. For under$100 to try it out, it's worth it. Heck $100 wont fill my tank anyways. I'm willing to try it out. Might need a large unit to feed 365 C.I. with a turbocharger, but I'll try...

I would like to hear from people who have actually tried it. Most people claiming they know it wont work, are probably completely clueless on how a motor works anyways. I dont care about physics. I've been told a lot of things that I couldn't do, I enjoy proving people wrong.

If you want to see someone bend the rules of physics and most important gravity... google search some videos of James "bubba" stewart and watch that kid ride his dirtbike.... tell me how he does it, because I dont understand...

I built one and am testing it.
Measuring input.
Measuring and calculating output.
Reading everything in sight.
My friends also built units and are testing theirs.
3rd and 4th generations already.
In awhile we'll know if it is worth the time and investment.
Will you?
JR

Although not a scientist, I've tried to read some of the scientific studies that the Joe Cell sites link out to in an effort to explain the phenomena and have more questions about stuff that I am led to believe are already known. Like how a state of ionization can be transmitted through solid matter, causing other atoms to ionize in a like manner. Or, why the reconstitution of hydroxyl and hydronium ions (back into water) by an electrical stream (ignition at 70 degrees before top dead center? -or perhaps a discharge between the ions themselves, like cloud lightning?) causes a vacuum. Or where the energy comes from in cavitation that damages the low pressure side of ship propellers and impeller blades and why it can be picked up on sonar. Or why a charge can be measured from water vapor surrounding a water fall (I read about this in connection with unexplained tanker explosions when tanks were being steam cleaned). If these things are true, as absolutely weird as they seem to me, then I don't see how the Joe Cell 'phenomena' can be dismissed. Some of the above are regarded as nuisances and the reason for them is ignored unless they're a problem. So was oil when it was first discovered. It was polluting farmers' water wells in PA. For any of you that have read any of the Joe Cell stuff, recall that Joe had originally thought it was the hydrogen gas that was being burned from the electrolysis process. He stumbled upon the the purported magnetic (?) effects by accident - he plugged it into the manifold pre-heater port, not a vacuum port.
It is an imperative of the human brain to cut out stuff that doesn't seem important in an effort to make sense of it's surroundings. All the scientists I've heard about I think are human. We may be throwing the baby out with the bath water in our assumptions about our fuel sources.

Steve Duvall says:

"... and 100,000 snake oil men/ women. ..."

Bit off topic, but ... Another irony that teaches us a lot about how humans think: While it is well possible that this saying came into being because of businessmen trying to sell crap using the name "snake oil" (following a kind of new-age trend), snake oil is a perfectly normal, long-known substance in Chinese medicine. It contains healthy substances in high concentration and is used to treat arthritis.
It's the same with "vandalism". Some church guy coined that word without thinking and publicly regretted it later, because the vandals were quite civilized and humane in contrast to other 'conquerer-types'.

To not fall for this misconceptions requires research, not thinking "vandals are mentioned in that word "vandalism", you know, so they must have been very violent."

Be sceptical, be open-minded (no contradiction, you know!), do your own research, honor truth! Distancing from truth creates false realities that lead to a waste of effort/energy/lives.

PS: I hate the words from X-Files "I want to believe!". It has a weird notion. Either you believe something or you don't, but not believing but wanting to, that's like a deep unfulfilled desire for religious guidance. Better alternative: "I want to know!". Even better: "I want to understand!". Experienced with many comments here: "I believe whatever I want to believe!"

this 'joe cell' topic is interesting, the laws of science and every other law that humanity has invented tells us that extracting energy from magnetic waves flowing through sub-space is impossible. i have my doubts about this device too, and isnt it convenient that no one has actual proof that the device works, the person was either killed, gone missing, or the unit died. and the online stores that sell the product to consumers have NO return policy, so that the oil companies cant find them, also how convenient that if the product doesnt work, you just lost 500 dollars! www.joecellenergy.com is the online store.

i also have an open mind, and at the moment my mind is saying to me, 'well it could work, but then again it couldnt.' exactly what they want you to think. but, who is to say that humans have explored and designed all of the laws of physics, motion and science. i still believe that there is a lot we still need to learn, and only believing what science is allowing us to beleive is one reason why we arent developing to a great extent, and why the planet is dying, and why we, as a dominant species, are stagnant.

i havn't tried making this device yet, but i will, and when i do make it i will tell people if it worked or not, none of the garbage that you see on the web.

thats my opinion, there has to be more laws out there that we havent discovered, and then maybe everything doesnt have to relate to science and physics.

Absolute rubbish!

What makes it all the more insulting (and it is wholly and unashamedly insulting to anyone with an ounce of intelligence) is the sheer amount of erroneous detail surrounding so-called 'successful applications' of the device.

Not only does the proposed function of the device disobey a fundamental law of physics, but several of the observations made by proponents are so obviously fictitious.

I can't quite figure out who's being duped, or where the scam is. Perhaps this is an experiment to see just how dumbfoundingly stupid the average internet user is - a practical measure of global gullibility.

I would put this device in the same column as colloidal silver, Scientology, turning lead into gold, and Santa, then file it away with all the other preposterous things that any intelligent adult would be daft to entertain.

Maybe it's possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear after all!!! LOL