The Joe Cell — A Fuel-less Energy Source?

The difference between this and, say, the telephone, electric light, and solar energy is that none of those things that really exist violate any fundamental laws of physics.

This is just a sprawling hoax.

As I said, it didn't make any sense to me, and am happy to defer to those wiser in such matters than myself. As with the Venom line of bicycles from Specialized, we do live in hope of cool replacements for gas guzzlers.

Fraud. Sham. Nonsense. Sorry!

My car runs on Chi.

Has somebody actually read about this? I have been following this whole 'free/zero point' energy thing for some time and I have to say this is one of the weirdest things around. I agree it is hard to believe, especially when they talk about the thing being influenced by people's moods and the appearance of time warps (no really!). But on the other hand, this is one of the most documented free energy devices on the web and from what I can tell this is not a single isolated case from someone who had it in a shed and it worked but then it got destroyed. This is a group of people who are busy with it and don't keep any secrets about it.

I don't think it is important if it violates any law of physics. It is far more important to find out if it actually works, we can deal with the physics behind it later. The laws of physics are not comprehensive anyway: how about gravity? We know it is there and that it works but we don't know how.

I think it is worth some attention and please people start trying this thing for yourself! I would if I had the means to and just imagine if it worked! There is a lot of information on the web on this subject. Just google on 'Joe Cell'.

Sander says: "I don't think it is important if it violates any law of physics."

And he's right. I mean, let's not allow science to get in the way of, you know, scientific discoveries. That darn science and all of its restrictive rules! Why can't atoms behave the way I want them to?

People, you can't be serious - that's just BS. Disappointed that you even bother to report it. (unless this is a kind of joke that missed somehow)

Aside: There-in lies the beauty of this being a blog, not a conventional media outlet. Debunking is near-instantaneous.

This has got to be a joke. The description of this device is an attempt to confuse us with technical sounding jargon that is supposed to impress us with it's complexity. Stephen Hawking couldn't figure this one out.

Mike

Apparently, 'negative electricity' is an important part of the process. And my personal favourite: "Cylinders have lengthwise alignment of magnetic-type swirl of frequency".

I hope that clears things up. Huh.

Steven Hawking could figure it out. He'd read the headline "A Fuel-less Energy Source" and he'd stop reading and go on to something else.

I think that's the thing I saw busted on Episode 53 of MythBusters last week

This is not something that science dosen't cover; this is basic electrolysis. Unfortunatly, despite bi-monthy miracle posts on Treehugger implying otherwise, attaching an electrolysis system to a car to generate hyrodgen and feed it to the engine is NOT going to give you a net gain of energy. Water is more stable then hydrogen and oxygen as seperate components, and as a result you have to put more energy into breaking it up than you'll ever get back. This is basic thermodynamics, and I would venture to guess that the people pertuating these myths simply lack the educational background nessecary to make these sorts of claims.

I'm a mechanical engineer in Charlotte North Carolina professionally working on alternative energy development, so believe me, I'd like nothing more than to see something like this work. While it sadly isn't as simple as a capacitor in a bowl of water, we do have a number of technologies that in tandem can go far to relieve our dependence fossil fuels, as this website has shown us many times.

It's helpful to remember that the laws of physics are man's attempt to understand the world around us. We are far from being able to do that, and if we think we've got it figured out, then that's all the more arrogance on our part, of the same sort that is leading us down a path of global destruction.

My jury is still out on this one, yet I am hopeful.

Dave,

We've mastered the basics. It's the spooky quantum-level stuff that's giving us headaches.

Einstein "replaced" Newton, but Newton's equations and 3-laws are still what everyone uses for everyday work.

Arthur C. Clarke, a very smart guy, said something I liked. I saw it on a video at Hugg.com called EQUINOX. He said Free Energy will go through four stages. 1) "It's nonsense,"
2) "It is not important,"
3) "I always said it was a good idea," and
4) "I thought of it first." I see 1 and 2 in these posts. 100 years ago if I told the average person about Nuclear power they would laugh at me. Even when it's big companies or trained persons, you see this is crazy posts. I think it's fine to cover the smaller guys. TH does the same for design. Why not power research? Sure, it might not work and you will probably never use some of the things the designers dream up. You might use, try it today and some day the world will change because the future is not more oil, burbs, SUVs and Walmart.

Best. Site. Evar.

All of the descriptions of how it works are rambling pseudo-scientific alchemical nonsense. Fantastic!

"The Joe cell is is an electrolytic capacitor." - okay, that may be true.

"It builds up a charge within, and ionises the vapour." - most capacitors just store a charge, they don't create one.

Then it gets great about "precharging water", about how it uses a battery, "which isn't drained in the process".

And how much power does the cell put out? Well, it's hard to say because, "A meter will discharge the cell." Classic!

For anyone who thinks this thing might work:

1. This is not some new technology that scientists are too arrogant to accept. Its just some metal in a jar with water. It can't make your car go. Please have more respect for science. It does make your car go.

2. You know that fuzzy feeling in your head when you read the description of this thing? Thats on purpose. Whoever made this thing up wants you to be confused so that you will believe it is possible to build one, but too complicated to actually do so yourself. You are being manipulated. Please be more careful.

Forget the laws of thermodynamics for a second, lets talk about the law of parsimony. Either a) spooky energy is bubbling up out of the zero point or b)these people are charlatans and/or kooks. Which explanation is more parsimonious?

Treehugger needs a science editor. Don't want to perpetuate the myth of enviros all being wacky luddite dropouts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsimony

Violates the first law of thermodynamics and is therefore impossible (and yes, I'm a physicist). Belongs in Book 3 of Gulliver's Travels, right alongside extracting sunbeams from cucumbers and reanimating dead dogs by blowing a bellows up their bunghole.

100 years ago if I told the average person about Nuclear power they would laugh at me.

If you told a nuclear physicist 100 years ago about nuclear power, they'd say "we're working on that." If you tell a quantum physicist about this stuff, they'll say it's bunk. The difference isn't what the average person thinks, it's what people in the field think.

If making energy was as easy as putting some metal in water and hooking up electrodes, they'd have done it by now.

Forget the laws of thermodynamics for a second, lets talk about the law of parsimony.

We obey the Laws of Thermodynamics in this household....

YOu don't even need physics for this one, just turn on your bullshit-o-meter. Anything that sounds too good to be true probably is. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean no one understands it.

Calling energy generated from the zero point field "free energy" is analogous to calling solar energy 'free energy'. It's not free, and you're not getting energy from nothing, so it's not a violation of thermodynamics in any way. The energy is simply leftover from the big bang. The specifics are nebulous, and only a very few physicists have actually dedicated significant resources to exploring this microcosm of the universe. (How's that for a juxtaposition?). The problem with ZPE is that it has been seized upon by the same crackpot science enthusiasts who more readily embrace alien abductions and perpetual motion than the scientific method. But believe me, there are a lot more outlandish theories being floated with straight faces among mainstream physicists than the 'particle virtualization' and 'half-filled photon states' which characterize the ZPF.

Hey, I've got one - we'll assume that Newton's Laws of Motion are immutable at all scales, and observing that there isn't enough matter in the universe to explain the motion of galaxies, we'll create a new form of matter which has no mass, does not interact energetically, but does exhibit gravitational effects. We'll call it dark matter, and spend billions trying to prove it exists. Ignore that crackpot over there talking about Modified Newtonian Dynamics.

Sorry, the antiestablishmentarian in me took over for a second.

I agree with mn. This stuff shouldn't be on TH.

For the people who follow this stuff and post about it, it's not about whether or not it really works, it's about the possibility that something out there might overturn the laws of physics and change the world as we they it. They don't want to understand it because it might burst their bubble. It's kind of sad, actually.

The world is full of transformative new ideas that should be understood and disseminated. This is someone's idea of a scam or a cult.

[AndrewKrause]: "But believe me, there are a lot more outlandish theories being floated with straight faces among mainstream physicists than the 'particle virtualization' and 'half-filled photon states' which characterize the ZPF."

True, but show me one respected scientist who's using Strings in his car to go watch earlier Big Bangs in alternate realities. These scientists are aware that these theories deal with phenomena not easily observed or used - humankind has already discovered most of the easy stuff. For example: making Fission usable (comes pretty close to an unlimited energy source) is a project that will take ~100 years and consume immense amounts of money.

In response to the last post (Krause), I do not believe this bunk device is talking about zero point energy, that's another issue entirelly.

Zero point energy is not something that you can ever extract work from, because it's the base energy level for everything. The second law of thermodynamics says that in order to extract work from a system, you must exchange energy from a high source to a low source. Zero point energy is the lowest you can possibly get, therefore you cannot extract work from it.

I agree very strongly with an earlier comment saying that Treehugger should have a science editor. I like this site a whole lot, but it hurts it credibility to make posts like this.

Icelander, a 100 years ago, physicists said in a few years, we will know everything and either theory was big. Nature and laws some guy made up are two different things. There was no e=mc2 100 years ago. Physics is a mess today if you ask anyone. I am not saying the guy is right. I am just saying open your minds a bit and stop thinking a science book is God.

Physics is just a language used to describe reality and is subject to revision.. but.. bullshit is a word in that language.

Wasn't this particular "free energy" unit debunked on Mythbusters not too long ago? For those not familiar with the show, various myths and outlandish scenarios are regularly and vigorously tested. For this one, they actually built the unit and attached it to the car. Lo and behold, the car didn't do anything.

I believe in keeping an open mind, but there's a difference between allowing new ideas and accepting any idea without scrutiny. Sorry, but this one doesn't just fail the sniff test. It fails real-world tests too. And that should be far more than enough to reject it.

Though the discussion of this post is sort of interesting sociologically, I'd like to propose that TH remove it from the site or preserve it for posterity in some sort of 'mistakes' section as a reminder to do a little fact checking before posting.

The activist and green left are for good reason characterized as semi-religious fanatic nuts long on self-righteousness and short on cool, rational fact. What makes TH great is its steady, practical approach to sustainability. A post like this, un-retracted, seriously damages its credibility.

I greatly appreciate that TH is a resource I can share with skeptics and republicans. I would hate to lose it.

@John: "Zero point energy is not something that you can ever extract work from, because it's the base energy level for everything."

The base energy level for everything is 0 Kelvin, or absolute zero. The ZPF explains why scientists can't ever seem to bring a system down to 0 K no matter how hard they try. The lowest they've ever managed is one ten thousandths of one millionth of a Kelvin above 0 K. Since there is a difference in potential between 0 K and that, then there is a capacity to do work. What we lack here is not imagination, but a practical means to exploit this difference. Voodoo technologists and perpetual motion mystics aside, I've seen but one proposal for tapping the ZPF field which resembles actual physics and not voodoo, and it depends on manufacturing tolerances on a microscopic scale that might not be possible for another decade. We'll have to wait till then and see.

In the mean time, I think we can agree that the Joe Cell is... not bloody likely.

I believe this topic was covered by the Simpsons:
(I paraphrased a bit. Thanks to SNPP.com)
Marge: I'm worried about the kids, Homey. Lisa's becoming very obsessive. This morning I caught her trying to dissect her own raincoat.
Homer: [scoffs] I know. And this perpetual motion machine she made today is a joke! It just keeps going faster and faster.

Homer: Lisa! Get in here.
[Lisa walks in, chuckling nervously]
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
-- The last straw, "The PTA Disbands"

I don't think there's any harm in posting this for comment, and I certainly understand the wishful thinking that encourages one to believe it. However, I agree that the post damages TH's credibility if it stands uncorrected.

I mean, I went through the Joe Cell wiki and someone was saying with an ostensibly straight face that the Joe Cell changes the weather of the locale where it is operated. This is just beyond goofy. And the link from TH will ensure that plenty of people are duped into thinking this is factual.

That confusion is ultimately detrimental to the environmental movement if people start thinking that our problems can be solved instantly by aliens and magic, rather than by technological and societal changes that require a lot of work.

I'd like to ride around on a flying unicorn as much as anybody, but I don't expect to find one in my garage.

Well, this is an interesting discussion, isn't it?

Look, I didn't say that the Joe Cell is working and everybody should start believing in it. And yes, I do know that there are a lot of scam artists in this field and a lot of nonsense. But what I wanted to say is that this perticular project stands out from the rest in that it is very open and well documented and I do think there are some strange things happening that deserve some more attention. Whether you can run your car on it or not.

And for everybody who says this isn't possible because it isn't possible (you know laws and such): please do some reading on the internet and find out that there's a lot more that defies the laws of physics - in whatever small margin that may be but there is.

Remember cold fusion? Everybody was convinced that was a scam. And yet somehow there are still hundreds of physicist busy with that same technology. They wouldn't be doing that if they weren't getting any results, it is just that getting consistent results is extremely hard. The Joe Cell could be just something like that.

Read 'The Hunt for Zero Point' by Nick Cook. He was an aviation editor for Jane's Defense Weekly. Very interesting stuff, which along the way makes clear why a lot of promising new technologies never make it to the public.

Someone can put out a generator fueled by 80s pop songs and rainbows and I will gladly buy it just as soon as I can see for myself that the thing works. I don't care how insane something is or against the laws of physics it is, if it functions, then it trumps our notions of physics. Ten years later, there'd be the Heisman Law of 80s Pop Songs and Rainbow Thermodynamics. It won't have been the first time that human understanding of science came after someone stumbled across a practical application and the scientists were left playing catch-up.

Do I actually believe that some wild-eyed guy asking for money for his infinite power machine has somehow discovered an unknown branch of science? No. But I'm always prepared to be proven wrong.

*sigh*

TH doesn't need a science editor -- it just wouldn't work.

What it needs is for its writers to be a little less credulous and a little more responsible. The writer's thought process looked to be as follows:

1) Ah! A Story that seems to be too good to be true.
2) Hmm. I don't understand it and have been blinded by technical jargon.
3) Publish and be damned!

Now, you don't need a science editor to tell you that 3) was foolish.

Here's a different argument for the non-technical audience (although I fully agree with the science arguments). Let's say this magic exists (excuse my bias haha). If someone could get a car to run on this sham, they would be selling it by the millions. They would become super rich. This includes the CEO of chevron or the mystery guys that keep this technology from springing up. Even governments have too many 'people' that are easily swayed by greed. The overall point is that if the device worked, we would be able to buy it at wal-mart. We wouldn’t be led to some weird website that only provides $39 manuals. Basic greed and capitalism should be enough to lead you believe that this stuff probably doesn’t work (let alone science) since we don’t see it being sold.

'Phantasmagorical': characterized by fantastic imagery and incongruous juxtapositions, from the noun, Phantasmagoria (an exhibition or display of optical effects and illusions.)

Wow. I'm staggered that so many took to this with such seriousness. Whoops. And that so many care about the credibility of TreeHugger. That is at least a great thing.

I assumed, unwisely it seems, that a post on a machine that purports to runs on vapours or Orgone would be treated with a very large dose of circumspection.

Did we say, at any point, that a Joe Cell was the answer to our prayers and we should all rush down to our auto-parts store and fit one right now? Not as I recall. Did the guys at the linked sites of PESN say it works? No, they seemed similarly cautious. I thought I'd peppered the post with enough suggestions it was unlikely to be kosher, such that no poor unsuspecting TreeHugger was going to immediately assume this was the next Big Thing.

But my obvious failing, is that my talent for irony is about as deft, as that of the much lampooned Alanis Morissette. A skill I'll need to refine.

Why post it then? Because it was odd ball, wacky, and not yet one more serious story on biodiesel or electric hybrids. And, to paraphase Albert Einstein: the thinking we need to get us out of this mess, has to be different to that which brought us here in the first place.

I am intrigued by the amount of emoting there is on this subject. Critical thinking. It's not the thinking part I find so intriguing but the critical part.

Who knows all the secrets of the universe? Is anyone else ignorant of some things along side of me?

While not one of us has seen a Joe Cell or know how it might work would it be a bad thing to keep open minds and watch, maybe hope we learn something new that would benefit mankind (us!) LOADS?

Who laughed at Gallileo (sp?), Columbus, or Alex G. Bell when they exclaimed "Eureka!"? Just about everybody.

For myself, I'll admit my ignorance, and hopefully watch the development of this Joe Cell.

It may come about that this is debunked or not at the seminar in Salt Lake City on July 30, 2006. You can check out more on the seminar at "http://pureenergysystems.com/academy/JoeCell2006/". I don't propose paying to attend this event, but do pay attention to the press following it.

This is not zero point energy, but energy from a source of which man has no current understanding. It is actually much like solar energy, but at a much higher frequency. I know many of the people supporting this 'technology' sound like crackpots with their 'emotional energy' opinions and such, but don't verbally debunk ideas of which you simply are ignorant. This is evil. Skepticism is a good defense mechanism, but try to use it in a positive way. Too many truely revolutionary advances in science have been hampered by ignorant nay sayers. It is one thing to protect your fellow man from scam artists by telling them it is bunk, but it is another to do so simply out of an inability or lack of desire to understand.

The problem with the people who are proponents of these kinds of "advances" in technology is that they will never allow their supposed discoveries to be disproven. Any attempt to disprove the device (by building one and showing that is doesn't work) will be thrown into one of three categories:

1) You didn't build it correctly.
2) You couldn't build it correctly because "they" (the Oil companies or the government) got to the instructions and modified them so the device would fail.
3) You are one of "them" (the Oil companies or the government) attempting to cover-up our discovery.

In that manner, the so-called invention will persist in myths and legends for centuries to come even though it is a bunch of BS.