AutoblogGreen?? That's a laugh. The Autoblog clowns are some of the most rabidly anti-green people I've ever encountered, and they certainly miss no opportunity to bash hybrids.

Guess they figured there was a buck to be made.

I'm surprised that you don't include some of the higher mileage non-hybrid vehicles. Considering the lifespan and environmental difficulties of battery disposal in hybrids, you should really think about other fuel choices like the 42mpg Jetta from VW.

Hi Codetrap,

The comparison is by Edmunds, not by us. They are the one who decided to compare hybrid vehicles only.

What exactly is the environmental difficulties you talk about? Batteries from hybrids are recycled (they actually pay you to get rid of it), they last the life of the vehicle according to Toyota, Honda and Ford (Toyota tested the battery for 150,000 miles without any degradation in performance).

These batteries are actually VERY GOOD for the environment because they keep lots of oil from being burned and lots of smog-forming emissions out of the air.

"you should really think about other fuel choices like the 42mpg Jetta from VW"

... which have the worst emissions rating of any new vehicle.

Probably not a big selling point to people who read "Treehugger", don't you think?

Bam! What's better than a hybrid? A VW TDI that runs on biodiesel. It consistently gets 50mpg, no toxic battery, fewer moving parts, and best of all it's petrol free. Petrol pollutes.

Randy, a few questions and observations:

"consistently 50 mpg": In the city too?

Biodisel is indeed quite cool, but most people with TDIs run it on diesel, which has pretty bad emissions, especially considering to hybrids (AT-PZEV, SULEV).

"toxic batteries": Actually, a TDI also has a "toxic battery", just like all cars. But these batteries, like the batteries in hybrids, can be recycled.

Petrol pollutes.

Diesel pollutes more.

Joe, can't you get over your anti-diesel bias? Your last post was content-free, the hallmark of an emotionally biased opinion. As we've discussed in the past, the full life-cycle of the gallon of diesel, from well to wheel, is more efficient than a gallon of gasoline when comparing similar vehicles. The life-cycle of the diesel vehicle itself is 4 times longer than the gasser. And the piece de resistance...biodiesel. More and more stations have it. Some states are mandating it. It is easy to produce and transport (as opposed to ethanol) locally. And any diesel engine, no matter how old, can run on it with a huge drop in emissions.
Soon to be implemented clean diesel technologies and emissions treatment will bring diesel in line with gas when comparing fossil fuel use. Diesel-electric hybrids are the future, this is a certainty. The faster Americans embrace diesel, the faster these technologies are implemented. Heck, anyone who dumps and old beater gasser and buys a new TDI is most probably doing the environment a huge favor anyway.

I thought diesel cars only caused more pollution in the states, where we refuse to remove the contaminants (especially sulfur) which are removed by most other countries?

Pat, the problem with sulfure (AFAIK) is that it makes the emission control systems of a vehicle fail a lot faster than with low-sulfur fuel.

The emissions of a gallon of low-sulfur diesel are not necessarily significantly lower than the emissions from a gallon of regular diesel, but over many thousands of miles, the vehicle that ran on high-sulfur diesel will become significantly more polluting.

That's one of the reasons why the introduction of low-sulfure diesel probably won't make a big change in a small amount of time; because old diesel vehicles will stay on the roads for a while, and because it doesn't significantly clean up diesel emissions (though it allows for better emissions control systems).

That's how I understand it, anwyay.

OK. That makes sense. But how does low sulfur diesel compare with gasoline? Would a diesel Jetta running on low sulfur have lower (or less toxic) emissions than one that ran on gasoline?

Pat,

Nope, a new VW TDI that runs on low sulfur will not have anywhere near as clean emissions as the same model in gasoline. Low sulfur will make it possible for the various emissions cleanup technologies to finally come stateside. The thing to do is to buy a new TDI and run a high percentage of biodiesel. Then you get the high mileage of a diesel, and much cleaner emissions. It will still put out more particulate than gasoline, but you are burning much less fuel, homegrown fuel, and renewable fuel. With diesel prices at around $3, you can now buy 100% biodiesel for around $2.50-$2.75, so its actually cheaper!

Nope, a new VW TDI that runs on low sulfur will not have anywhere near as clean emissions as the same model in gasoline. Low sulfur will make it possible for the various emissions cleanup technologies to finally come stateside. The thing to do is to buy a new TDI and run a high percentage of biodiesel. Then you get the high mileage of a diesel, and much cleaner emissions. It will still put out more particulate than gasoline, but you are burning much less fuel, homegrown fuel, and renewable fuel. With diesel prices at around $3, you can now buy 100% biodiesel for around $2.50-$2.75, so its actually cheaper!

Very well put. Pithy, honest, positive, and topical.

It gets my A rating.

So which is better? A diesel or hybrid? I've recently become educated on the fact that having a v8 isn't just expensive gas, but also most polluting and want to buy something more environmentally friendly, but still want to have a mommy friendly car (stroller space etc). My husband says diesel w/ low sulfur, but I still want to get more info on hybrids. Any recommendations from those of you who know the down low on hybrid vs. diesel?

I will take diesel technology over hybrid/gasoline any day. Ask one of those Mercedes diesel owners that are still driving their 600,000 mile cars around with the original motor. Tell me a hybrid can do that.
There have been studies on the battery life of hybrids....have there been any on the starters of these vehicles? Every time that hybrid shuts down the engine at a stoplight and has to start it back up is one more shock sent to the starter and one more twist on the crankshaft. Have you ever had to change a starter? Heard of someone complaining at work because their starter went out after 40K miles? Of course you have, and that's on a vehicle that starts the engine once per trip not once per stoplight. Engines are designed to start and run at temperature for extended periods of time, not whipping on the crankshaft every 2 minutes you sit at a stoplight. Case and point: every time you start your engine you take life away from it.
A diesel-hybrid is a whole different story, it will start once and run just above idle while charging a battery...like a train (the first hybrids). The powertrain always runs off of the electric motor and the engine never shuts off, but operates at such a low RPM that it is hardly noticeable. Prototype diesel hybrids outperform gasoline hybrids by 30% (Fords prototype did a consistant 73mpg) Run that on biodiesel and you could suck on the tailpipe. That is your treehugging wet dream, sit back and wait.

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editor note: hybrid batteries should last the life of the vehicle according to Honda, Toyota and Ford. Tests have been made and they noticed no degradation after a couple hundred thousand miles. Plus, hybrid taxi drivers in Vancouver drove such distances without problem. At the end of the life of the vehicle, they actually pay you to recycle the batteries.

Hybrids don't have regular starters, it's the electric motor that starts the car. It is much more powerful and can spin up to higher speeds. Plus, on HSD cars like the Prius, oil pressure is established before the gas engine starts. It's actually less stressful on the engine and other parts than the starter of regular cars.

The 600,000 miles diesel vehicles sure last long, but they are also probably polluting (PM, NOx, etc) as much as tens of modern gasoline cars put together. Hybrids are AT-PZEV, the best current diesels have trouble getting ULEV in the US - and I can't imagine how the emission of a 600k miles diesel engine would rate...

Diesel and diesel-hybrid is very promising, but it has many drawbacks too. It'll be much more interesting in a couple of years.

I am waiting for the reliance issues to be resolved before I purchase an electric or hybrid.

It appears the Prius is first rate - but what of battery life and disposal. And the actual mileage if you live in a rural area is more like 40 mpg rather than what is claimed.

Also clearance is a problem in snowy areas.

I will take any and all suggestions here. thanks

" petro polutes ,

diesel polutes more "

BULLSHIT , this is based on WHAT ???

any properly maintained diesel burns cleaner than any gasoline engine of comparable size and power rating .

Depends on the fuel. Diesel has a lot of NOx and particulates.

It is interesting to watch the "TDI versus Hybrid" issue being hotly defended on both sides. It seems to me that both technologies are a step in the right direction and will most probably not be mutually exclusive at a future date at least. Who hasn't wished there was a way to capture and store all that wasted energy when going downhill in a car with the foot on the brake almost all the way - or having to stop for a light - or in countless other situations. Well, with hybrid technology you can. True, hybrids still are in their infancy with only a few mass-produced models around. They are still expensive to build - but so were a lot of other technical innovations when they started out. Diesel engines have been around for a lot longer, they have become much more fuel-efficient, cleaner and more fun to drive, certainly in the last 5-10 years. Who wouldn't enjoy a very powerful little TDI car using only 3.5 litres of Diesel per 100km? They are a great drive! With the planned improvements on the actual composition of Diesel fuel in the works, there may soon be a day when the emissions will drop considerably too. It seems logical that sooner or later someone will build a diesel-hybrid and maybe also a methanol fuel version for countries like Brazil. This will hopefully someday soon be followed by combinations that use something like salad oil as primary fuel. And eventually we will have a hydrogen fuel-cell hybrid (no emissions). Of course there is always room for improvement. As far as I am concerned, I will be happy on that day when we reach the stage where my car needs only a bit of green waste to go at light-speed, preferably off the ground - a bit like the DeLorean from the Back To The Future movie. Until then, a combination hybrid drive (with variable primary engines) at least captures some of the otherwise wasted energy any car inevitably produces while travelling. Now that way of thinking needs all the support it can get.

any properly maintained diesel burns cleaner than any gasoline engine of comparable size and power rating

Is that a joke?

Here's a nifty calculator that will tell you what price gas needs to be for it to make sense to trade in your current vehicle for a hybrid:

www.whentogogreen.net