30% of Americans Would Consider Riding a Scooter

This treehugger plans to pick up a fully-electric E-Max or EVT to handle 80% of his milage by next fall. And that's a big investment considering he's a broke student.

Rock on, K!

OK, I weary of re-hashing this matter.

Even though they use far less gas,
motorcycles and scooters do not have emissions controls like cars. The EPA states that motorcycles prior to 2007 models may produce several times more pollution than a car. Two-stroke scooters (most of the cheap ones) can make up to twenty times the pollution of a car.

2007 motorcycles will have some emissions controls, but I'm not sure if it will make them any cleaner than cars.
Scooters under 50cc can be as dirty as the want, and seeing as they are all two-strokes, they will be very dirty, indeed. (The Vespa hybrid is a 2-stroke.)

If you have the option, PLEASE get an electric scooter! They use ZERO gas.

I regularly rode a scooter in San Francisco in the 80's and 90's and I am considering getting one now for use in the summer months here (Great Lakes Region, we get up to 150" of snow in a season), but I am concerned about agressive drivers. People seem to have forgotten that pedestrians, bicyclists and motorcyclists/scooterists are sharing the roads not obstacles to be overrun.

Whatever scooter I get has to have a range of at least 70 miles and be able to hit 60mph to keep me from getting killed on the roads around here. I'd love to get an electric but I just haven't seen one that meets these needs. for whatever it's worth, most of the ones I've looked at are 4 stroke models and tend to run much cleaner than the 2 strokes.

Aren't you a little wary on scooter studies done by the company that makes them?

Not to outright call Piaggio liars or anything, and I'm sure scooters are less harmful to the environment than say... SUVs (just like a Jetta is less harmful than SUVs)... but the statistics? 1 in 3 Americans? really?

*takes a bite of the doubt cake*

I am a new scooter owner and I love it! I save on the wear and tear of my car in the spring- fall timeframe and I enjoy the wonderfall and awful smells of the city.

The best part is the money I save in gas. I have a 250cc Aprilia Scarabeo and I love it, or did I say that.

As long as people drive one person to a car, I'm not to worried about my scooter causing emission trouble. It's going to take a lot of scooters to cause a problem that cars aren't already doing.

I drive a Yamaha Vino 125 for most of my commuting and errand running. In addition to getting great gas mileage (near 70mpg) it is a clean burning 4 stroke engine, a requirement here in California I believe, at least for those over 50cc. The newer 4 stroke scooters are quiter, and have much lower emissions. Regarding whether or not 1 in 3 Americans would make a jump to scooters, all I can say is that not a day goes by now that gas is over $3 a gallon that I don't get stopped several times a day with people asking about the scooter, how much they cost, what kind of mileage they get. Plus with the ease of parking, you have fewer cars circling the block and idling waiting for a parking spot. Just my 2 cents.

I like the idea - seems like a hybrid or electric scooter would be pretty compelling from a purely environmental standpoint. But the way people drive in my state, I think I'd rather stick with a hybrid car... Or a plain old fashioned bike for shorter distances.

Elaine,

That is a surprising number, but Piaggio also used a very uncommon description of a scooter.

Until recently, scooters in America could only go to 25-35mph, and were small with teensy motors.
But when the EU and parts of Asia banned two-stroke motors for the pollution, several of the motorbike makers (Piaggio included) introduced what they called 'hybrid' scooters. They had the mandated cleaner 4-stroke motors, and they were bigger bikes with bigger motors that could wind out to 110+mph. More importantly, they looked much more like sleek motorcycles. They are now very common in Europe, Asia and North America. America loves motorcycles, so it's not surprising alot of Americans would say they would like to ride a bike more often, while saving on gas.

I have started to see guys driving their big highway cruiser bikes to work in downtown Chicago, with motors as big as my car, but they are saving on gas, compared to the suv or luxury car they had previously been driving.

Parking is the biggest issue for scooters. Cities should include scooter parking in all zoning regulations so that scooter owners have a safe place to lock their vehicles when at work, home, and shopping.

It's funny that most cities actually have zoning requirements to provide car parking spaces, but rarely require bike or scooter parking space. That's something that needs to change if we want to encourage people to drive more efficient and sustainable vehicles. Plenty of dedicated parking for bikes and scooters would go a long way to making it convenient to drive a bike or scooter instead of a car.

parking does seem to be a problem. Sadly a few days ago I saw 2 NYC cops ticketing a scooter that was locked to a pole on the sidewalk in front of my office.

i would like to see someone make a scooter run on bio-deisel. if we could put a man on the moon i'm sure that it would be very possible

Dawn,

As I mentioned above, it only takes one scooter to make more pollution than a car. SIZE MEANS NOTHING when the engines are so different.

They banned older, polluting scooters in many cities around the world, because the pollution was getting so bad - not from the trucks and cars - but from the scooters and trikes running on scooter motors.

This is because cars were already forced to clean up their act decades ago. But motorcycles, scooters and trucks have been immune to such rules until very recently.

I love bikes, and it really seems unbelievable that my car makes less pollution than the little scooter I once had. But that's what the research data says.

I really hope the new EPA laws are as strict as they should be. Scooters and motorcycles should be much cleaner alternatives than they currently are. I just read some reports, and in India, they set such strict laws, that the new scooters there are much cleaner than in Europe. But scooters and scooter taxis are everywhere in South Asia. They HAD to do something.

STELLA

150 cc, 2-stroke (with a cat)
93 mpg, 200 mile range on a tank, and will run 55-60 mph all day long.. (4 speed with a clutch)

Want cleaner?
Honda Ruckus.
50 cc 4-stroke with a cat.
same milage, top speed of 40 mph.

On this issue, it's unfortunate that the infrastructure is for the standard large car. Safety is a legitimate concern which makes a scooter an only-sometimes solution at best for most people. If I wasn't sure someone would get killed sooner or later, I'd be thrilled to pick one up and recommend them to my friends. Without satisfactory infrastructure in place, it's something to gush about to strangers and for a few daring eccentrics to actually buy. It's a crappy legacy to be stuck with.

I've been an active visitor to this website for a VERY long time, but there is one thing that does greatly bother me. The website's bias twards electric scooters over gas, from what I know its better for both efficiency and for the ball of gas we call our atmosphere to ride a gas scooter than it is to plug in an AC-DC inverter that uses electricity just for energy conversion than to spend that next 8 hours keeping plugged in while all the extra heat(Energy)is despated from the inverter and the battery while they're charging, As an enviromentalist Im strongly oppossed to all electric vehicals not hybrids just fully electrical, when your charging your batterys your actually losing more effiecncy to both heat desipation and wieght not to mention the extra damage the batteries will to the enviroment when they are disposed of at the end of there life, What I tell every enviromentalist like myself is to purchase a very fuel effienct scooter or car for that matter with a very small gas engine, but not pure plug in, hybrids are ok but only by a little bit, and here is why, battery technology that we have today is still the same as it was 60years ago, yes we have things such as AGMs and DeepCycles but there still the same heavy bulky and very energy ineffiecnt batteries, in phycis we are thought that energy can never be created or destroyed it can however be changed to other things, in the case of the small gas scooter your burning your energy right there, besides exhaut, internal friction and heat most of your energy(in the scooters case not in a car) goes to your rear wheels, however with an electric most of it is hauling the heavy batteries which took over 6 hours of energy wasting DC conversion to do, and that energy came from either a coal,gas fired or nucular power plant all of which as of recently have been treated with looser and looser epa regulations, if someone is gonna pollute the sky with burned hyrocarbons and Carbon Monoxide wouldnt you rather do it in small portions to get to werk or would you rather have CommEd billow tons and tons of it over night while your waiting for your batteries to charge.

Fouad, that's an interesting argument. Please consider that batteries can be recycled at the end of their life, and that most EVs are charged at night when power is often wasted (many types of power plants can't shutdown or reduce their production just for the night, including coal plants).

Gas scooter have a very good potential, but unfortunately in lots of places regulations aren't strict enough and there are tons of incredibly polluting scooters with 2-stroke engines, or 4-stroke but bad emission control.

A good way to use both technologies is probably to clean up the gas ones and use them for longer commutes, and use the electrical ones for shorter commutes, and as the grid becomes cleaner they'll become even cleaner.

I love riding my motorcycle to work, but I do wish motorcycle manufacturers would introduce a model or two with more emphasis on fuel economy and clean emissions. I'm sure when my sport bike was designed, there was about 0 attention paid to how much gas it burns. And at 35 mpg for a 600cc engine, it's relatively very thirsty. My car has an engine 5 times as large but gets 2/3 the gas mileage.

Combustion vehicles are less efficieint and far more polluting than electrics. As much as 1/2 of the energy generated by burning fuel turns straight into heat, which is wasted, except for heating your vehicles cabin in winter, and it generates several times more than is necessary for that.
The heat generated(and wasted) charging batteries is only a fraction of this.

1/3 to 2/3 of the energy generated by your bike or car engine is wasted just delivering torque through the transmission, driveshaft/chain and axles to your wheels. Many electric vehicles drive the wheel directly.

When you compare the inefficiencies of combustion vehicles compared to those of electric vehicles, as well as the pollution each generate, even if the electricity comes from coal-fired plants, the electric vehicle is still far cleaner.

Thank you everyone for your friendly, helpful and very informative input, I enjoyed reading and sharing thoughts with all of you and I'll be sure to post again when I feel that I have somthing important to add-in

" 1/3 to 2/3 of the energy generated by your bike or car engine is wasted just delivering torque through the transmission, driveshaft/chain and axles to your wheels. "

Carl, I'm sorry this figure is just not correct.

Porsche has the most efficient energy delivery (from the engine to the wheels) at a total drivetrain loss of 12%. This is largely due to the fact that they have the engine so close to the drive wheels. However on front engine / rear drive cars the total drivetrain loss can approach 25%!

An internal combustion engine in automobiles at very best is 40% efficient.
i.e. only 40% of the diesel fuel is converted into kenetic energy.

That figure would be for a diesel engine runing optiomally. Otto Cycloe engines (gas engines) are at best 33% efficient. Only 33% of the energy is converted into kenetic energy.

It does no good to say "Otto 4 stroke engine X in scooter A has emissions equiptment and therefore it is cleaner than a car".
We need REAL figures here people.

How many parts per million of CO2 does Scooter A produce for a given gallon of gasoline? How does that compare with a fuel efficient Car?
How about NOX etc...

It has long been the case that scooter engines have been VERY dirty, several times more poluting than even a Big Ol' SUV b/c there have been (traditionally) little to NO Environmental regulations on them.

First I ride a scoot and second I am tired of much of the bull that goes on about them.
In order to import a bike it must meet certain emission standards. These standards are not as strict as autos but they are not easy to achieve, most major builders now use injectors and have cat convertors.
No 2 stroke motors can be imported or built. They cannot meet the emission standards for unburnt hydrocarbons.
Lastly even electric scoots use pertochemicals. For the most part the electric motors are significantly less effective then the same size gas motor. What really happens is the consumer shifts the emissions from his tailpipe to the electric companies smke stack.
But a good, well maintained scoot is green and cost effective.

"a good, well maintained scoot is green and cost effective"

Cost effective, yes. Green, no.
All that 'bull' is there for a very good reason. That bull exists in spades for cars, but you just don't hear people gripe about it anymore.

I'm sorry, but teams of scientists from the EPA, EU and South Asia can't all be wrong just because your perception tells you you're right.

Lil Hugger,

Sorry, I was mixing up total vehicle efficiency with drivetrain efficiency.
My point was, burning fuel, and using a conventional drivetrain results in much worse efficiency than an electric generating plant.
Lumping cars and bike together is also wrong. Bikes generally have a far better power-to-weight ratio, and smaller engines, so are usually more efficient.

Carl seems to suffer from form of rectocranial inverson. The facts are the facts. His supposed teams of scientists are like the data that support global warming, a fairy tale. Once you dig thru the smoke and mirrors you discover there is nothing to Carl and Global Warming but smoke and mirrors. Todays engines are cheap clean and reliable. The same cannot be said for the current (pun intended) electric motors and distribution system, they are the top of the line 1940 technology. That is not clean, not effective, and in the long run not green.

That's great news. It's good to see attitudes are changing. I agree that electric scooter models are the ideal, but a gas scooter is certainly an improvement over a car, truck or SUV.

Sorry guys, but I need to see data before I will believe that modern scooters are clean (grean) vehicles:

how many parts per million of CO2 for a gallon of gasoline does your scooter produce. How many NOx ETC..

NO one has posted that yet

Canis,

Yep, you're right, and thousands of experienced scientists are just stupid morons.

Thanks for enlightening us....

I would say this I just bought a Honda Big Ruckus scooter. It has a 250cc engine and can cruise at highway speeds. Mine can easily hang in traffic going 65mph. At around 70 miles to the gallon of gas, this is now my primary way to work and running small errands around town. In just the two weeks that I have been running this thing. I have noticed a little more money in my bank account. When gas went to three bucks a gallon here in VA I finally said the hell with this and bought me a scooter, I had been considering it for about year now. I can say this with gas prices hovering around three bucks a gallon, I have seen more and more people on these things. To me one n three people would buy a scooter is pretty believable to me.

Fouad:

I definitely understand your argument. Batteries are wasteful and ugly in the landfills. Why not package the EV with a decent photovoltaic (50 watts or better) or a wind generator? That would do well for short hauls, namely small errands within the neighborhood. South West Windpower makes a 400 wat (rated) turbine that includes a 12-24VDC charge regulator for ~ $500 that is roof mountable. One can build thier own turbine of higher output for the same price or less using scrap.

@Carl and others on the 2 stroke/clean debate

All the current Vespa lineup in the USA are 4 stroke, including the hybrid (see http://2strokebuzz.com/index.php?p=2758 for independent specs on the hybrid). On that point you are dead wrong. The Vespa PX which is a 2 stroke is no longer available in the USA (see http://www.vespausa.com for their current lineup and engine specs).

Yes, many older scooters are/were dirtier, but 2 stoke scoots are harder and harder to get (even recent imports like the Genuine Stella are no longer being imported).

Plus the vintage 2 strokes are too much maintenance for the vast majority of daily commuters, so let them get a new shiny clean Vespa or an equivalent. Yes, it's not as clean as a bicycle or an electric scoot.

But compared with any four wheeler, a scooter is a vast improvement. Considering practicality, availability, maintenance and pricing, for many a Vespa or similar new 4 stroke scooter is the best and easiest way to go greener - even when compared with biking or electric scoots.

So stop putting people off a good thing. Also, scooting and biking is meant to be fun, so stop ranting on here and ride on (whatever your ride).

I own a Yamaha Vino Classic. The Vino Classic is a 50cc scooter, but it has a 4-stroke SOHC with low emissions. It is a reliable and clean scooter and gets 80-100mpg. Mine even goes 45mph, which is amazing for a 50cc. The person who claimed you cannot get a 50cc scooter with a four stroke was simply wrong.

"Single cylinder, four-stroke catalytic Hi-PER4" This is from The Vespa website tech page (http://www.vespausa.com/products/lx_specs.cfm). I am in contat with Piaggio to find out what the Carbon foot print of the LX 50 is... Will keep you updated.

Grow Verde

Now that I know that scooters are really tools of the devil, spewing massive pollution from their disease ridden maws, I'm going to get a second one to replace my clean running Volvo.
Yes, the price of gas and insurance does enter into the decision, but I thought some of you might appreciate knowing that thou art indeed holier than I.