Plug-Ins, EVs, and Consumer Power: an Interview with Paul Scott
by Jacob Gordon, Nashville, TN 
on 04. 7.06
Paul Scott makes illusions—he creates visual effects for the movies. But his fight to bring sustainable technology to the people is an epic unto itself. Scott has been instrumental in the “Don’t Crush” campaign that has fought (and won) against big automakers to keep electric vehicles on the road. He helped bring a feature film about electric cars to Sundance, and is co-founder of Plug In America, an alliance of green car advocates. He was kind enough to share his thoughts on the future of plug-ins, electric vehicles, and how people can get the cars they want.
TreeHugger: By now, people are starting to catch on to what plug-in hybrids are all about. What’s their significance and what will their evolution be?
Paul Scott: The significance of plug-ins is that they combine the best of two technologies. First, as most folks know, hybrids combine an electric motor with a small gas or diesel engine so that the electric power assists the internal combustion engine (ICE) allowing for more efficiency. Since electric motors are by far more efficient than ICE, the more electric power you use to move your car, the more efficient your driving will be.
Therefore, it makes sense to add more batteries to a regular hybrid so that the car can be driven as an EV for a reasonable distance. Since the vast majority of Americans drive less than 40 miles each day, a battery pack big enough to hold about 10 kWh of power could suffice for a large majority of our daily driving. You simply plug the car in to a 120V socket while you sleep.
If you needed to drive further than the battery could take you, the ICE would kick in seamlessly and you would then drive on gas or diesel.
TH: I know there are some critics out there of the plug-in. What’s their argument and how do you respond?
There really aren’t any critics of the PHEV. Toyota has admitted they are working on the concept, but since several engineers have already modified the Prius in their garages, and kits are being developed to bring this technology to the market, we know Toyota is merely biding their time before launching PHEVs. They are probably waiting for the results of tests on the new Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) batteries so they are satisfied about the longevity. The power to weight ratio is very good, but longevity is also important. So far, it looks very good.
The batteries in all of the current hybrids are called Nickel Metal Hydride. This is a very good battery chemistry and has proven to outlast the cars themselves with ranges over 150,000 miles. However, they weigh more, so everyone is looking at Li-Ion for the PHEV since the battery needs to be bigger.
The only argument against PHEVs is the cost of the batteries. They are dropping in price fast, however, and it is already very clear that if made in large quantities, the price would be cost effective today.
What is important to understand is that the federal government gives billions of dollars to the oil companies every year to subsidize that industry. If the tax money now going to the oil companies were instead used to subsidize part of the cost of the batteries, we could easily market millions of EVs and PHEVs.
It is a question of priorities.
TH: What are the major obstacles to the widespread adoption of plug-ins on the horizon?
PS: The only obstacle is the lack of a carmaker willing to make them. If given the choice, the public will overwhelmingly choose the PHEV. If given the choice, most of them would overwhelmingly choose a pure battery EV. It’s impossible to do this without product in the showroom.
TH: You just helped bring a film to Sundance. I hear it’s a murder mystery. Can you tell us about it?
“Who Killed the Electric Car?” opens June 28th. This is a very well thought-out gem of a movie. As a documentary, it works well because the whole story about why EVs were made, and where they ended up, is laid bare in a very entertaining manner. The emotion expressed by the people who experienced this amazing technology comes through in their earnest desire to save the cars from the crusher and force the carmakers to make more.
The EV activists are very excited about the release of this film as it will tell the story we have been trying to get out for the past three years to a wide, receptive and hopefully, influential audience. It is our hope that folks get upset enough from what they learn that they join us in demanding these vehicles from the carmakers.
TH: What kind of car do you drive?
I was very lucky to acquire one of the few Toyota RAV4 EVs sold in 2002 and 2003. We didn’t know the program was going to be dismantled and luckily bought one a week before they shut it down. We learned later that they intended to do this all along. The movie details this pretty well.
After Toyota stopped offering the EVs, they began to take back the vehicles as leases came due. Normally, the customer could just buy the vehicle, and most lessees tried. But, Toyota refused, took the cars back, and began crushing them. They destroyed several hundred in this way until we stopped them with protests.
There was $13,000 of federal and state tax money in each one of those cars. While Toyota had the legal right to destroy them, they did not have the moral right. It is absurd that any car company that calls itself “green” would do such a thing. But, Toyota was not alone in this crime. GM, Ford, Daimler Chrysler, Honda and Nissan were all guilty of doing the same thing. Of over 5,000 production EVs made, about 4,000 of them were destroyed. This in spite of standing offers to buy them.
(Crushed GM electric cars)
TH: What would an ideal transportation infrastructure look like to you? What are the most important steps in getting there?
Because electric power is the most efficient, cleanest, quietest and most affordable energy for transportation, we will all be using it in the future. Energy from all sources is rising in cost very quickly, and the rate of increase is accelerating. As the true costs of oil, coal and nuclear power are gradually added to the price consumers pay, the public and commerce will act accordingly. They will choose that which costs them less.
Of course there are things that liquid fuels do very well, and long distance travel is one. However, petroleum based fuels, particularly those that are at risk strategically, will gradually be priced out of contention and locally produced ethanol and other bio fuels will take their place. This is where the PHEV really shines. For families that need to travel far on a regular basis, a mid sized PHEV SUV will do the trick fine, while being driven as an EV for most of its life. Any additional vehicles in the family would be pure EVs. If the car is not taken on long trips, there is no need to have an ICE involved.
The infrastructure is already built since the grid is everywhere we drive. Most folks will charge at home while they sleep using cheap off peak power. All of their energy money will stay local, most of it staying in their own pockets since buying electricity for your car is like buying gas for less than a dollar a gallon.
Many people will buy solar systems for their property as the investment pays 10% or better and you will be able to power your house and car with sunshine. Many Californians with EVs have been doing this for years.
TH: Anything else you’d like to add?
PS: I encourage your readers to see “Who Killed the Electric Car?” and spread the word. You will have to demand this technology since the carmakers are not going to offer it until you do. Call your local Toyota dealer and ask when the PHEV will be ready. Tell them you won’t buy until they make one.
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Uh, since when is electric eco-friendly? I agree it will cut down on oil consumption, which I'm for. But where does electricity come from? Oh ya, electric plants that burn coal or use nuclear power that polutes streams. Unless you are charging the car off Solar, wind, wave or other totally clean energy, it is not totally eco-friendly. I wish poeple would stop being ignorant about this fact. Same ignorance goes for ethanol. Yes it has promise. But on a large scale, we don't have the land to grow enough material to support a total ethanol supply. The only way we can come close is if we work out agricultural treaties with Latin America to subsidise it.
Vega,
Where do you get your electricity? If you are not getting it from a renewable source, you really shouldn't be talking. If dirty power is an issue for anyone, they should immediately switch to wind or solar power. To be denigrating EVs because they use electricity is just wrongheaded.
Electric drive is very eco-friendly compared to driving with gas. Several studies clearly show that even if you charge batteries from the national grid mix which is over 50% coal, the total pollution per mile driven is significantly less than driving with gas. And EVs are the only vehicles that allow you to drive 100% pollution free.
The only means of travel cleaner than an EV charged with renewable power is walking or biking.
California's electricity mix is made up of a much higher percentage of natural gas and renewable energy sources than the nation as a whole with less than one third the amount of coal generation. Further, on both a national and state level, the grid is becoming cleaner over time. Conversely, gasoline cars' CO2 and pollution emissions, including those of standard hybrids, invariably increase as the vehicles age. Keep in mind, too, that it is easier to control emissions from centralized power plants than it is to control emissions from millions of tailpipes.
Will someone explain to me what happens to all of the dead batteries from electric and hybrid cars?
"Will someone explain to me what happens to all of the dead batteries from electric and hybrid cars?"
Sure. They are recycled. You even get paid for your batteries..
Should we be Worried About Hybrid-Car Batteries?
Vega, not wanting to join in picking on you, but you are wrong about ethanol too.
It can be made from waste organic material and switch grass. Switch grass can grow pretty much anywhere and is a lot more efficient than corn for producing alcohol.
And what Paul Scott said about your electricity too.
Gotta get in on the Vega Pile On.
My friend, centralized power generation, even with current crappy dirty coal plants, is still cleaner than tens of thousands of ICE's on the road. Why? Centralized emissions control.
Add to that... how many people really check their tire pressure every week, change their oil and service their cars as they should? So even if all cars went EV today and there were no changes to the current grid, air quality would increase by many orders of magnitude. Of course, you can choose to buy green electricity NOW, so even NOW, you can charge an EV with no "carbon cost".
So can we all treat this EV myth with the same enthusiasm as we do for the wind turbine/bird death myth?
I have other concerns with EV that are in part related to what Vega mentioned. First the direct comparison of Plants CO2 emisssions and overall effciency compared to vehicle combusion engines must be tapered by the additional problems of energy transfer, stowage, and use. While plants are more efficient at producing energy (and thus are cleaner) they lose a tremendous amount of engergy in transport which negates much of that efficiency gain. Additionally energy is lost in charging and discharging batteries (along with leakage while doing neither). Further there of course is the efficiency of the motor to equate as well. Gasoline has some advantages over batteries.
For long distance transport, you have minimal energy loss per distance. Even considering the fuel cost of transport vehicles more of the potential energy is retainted.
For short distance (in the car) it is a lighter energy storage medium. Though arguable the secondary compents of combustion engines are heavier, this need not be the case.
For me to really get behind batteries I need to see a much more efficient energy storage system in both weight and long term retention.
Otherwise I can only get beind EV cars if they are pulling essentially free energy from the grid. (If the grid runs an excess of green fuel that cannot otherwise be used). If not, then I'd want to see a much more comprehensive calculation of their cost/benifit.
Interesting points. But, you should also take into account that many plants generate excess energy now. Problem is, the just pump it into the ground, literally. This is one of those dirty little secrets about our grid. Most plants cannot just slow down or shut off their turbines, so off-peak, it goes into the ground. Sure, some have reservoirs uphill that allow them to pump water up, then release it through turbines when needed, but this is very rare.
Of course battery tech can be better, and will be soon. But there needs to be a market need/force ahead of that. So yes, current tech needs to catch on before future tech can be implemented.
I find it odd that nitpicks come out so easily for something like this, even with the current system being so openly bad in all respects.
EV based SUV? You gotta be kidding me. Every morning and night I join an endless conveyorbelt of steel rolling along with here and there a few pounds of meat sprinkled in. Always wondering why we need so much steel to move ourselves 20 miles to work.
To me, EV sounds great in purpose build vehicles. Small, light one or two seaters build to do one thing. Commute! I hear you say, can't take my family on holiday with that" Well, don't use your regular car for that. Every vehicle has it's purpose.
Sad thing is, I can't buy one. My Holden Vectra is for sale as I hope to purchase a Honda Insight to make at least a little difference.
So most people can afford to buy a small EV for comuting alongside their family vehicle can they?
"So most people can afford to buy a small EV for comuting alongside their family vehicle can they?"
This is what I find most odd about the plug-in idea. Basically the assertion is that people will use their vehicles to go not-so-long distances. And then they say that the plug-ins will do great because they won't be going so fast (not more than 30 mph). If that's the commute scenario (which I doubt is very common compared to the norm, mind you), then one would be far better off going to the upper right of Treehugger and clicking on the ad for an eGo scooter and spending $1,200 for that, instead of invalidating the warranty on one's expensive Prius and spending an extra$10K+ to do so.
And, it'd be about 4-10 times more efficient (at least) to take that little scooter compared to a 4,000 pound vehicle.
Seems like someone interested in efficiency would realize all that.
I feel my time is due in buying a new car and I want a PHEV.
If none is on the market, I am thinking of having my 1997 Nissan Sentra converted to an EV instead.
"For me to really get behind batteries I need to see a much more efficient energy storage system in both weight and long term retention." Do you live in California or drive a Venus project (melt the Earth) car Playit? Do you work for an oil firm or gasoline-powered car company? You say you want to wait for more efficent batteries. If Stanford R. Ovshinsky's batteries were so bad, why did GM prevent him from announcing their efficiency in American national publications? And how big is your backyard? 25% of the youth of Los Angeles County have chronic respiratory disease and lung lesions. While you are waiting for a better battery, can we build a respiratory clinic in your back yard?
Yes for Electirc . The next new car I buy will not have a gasoline or diesel engine. As a photojournalist with the New York Times, I have seen the oil flares in the Congo River Delta, and watched weather systems develop over the burning gas of the Chevron oil production rigs in the Gulf of Cabinda. I will not buy a new car that has a gasoline powered engine. These people are profit driven and only answer to their concumers. Stop them people... we are the only ones who can.
Jeff
we are hoping to reach paul scott to invite him to speak in santa monica. any idea how to contact him? thanks, slloughmiller@yahoo.com 310 382 4374