Just tell us the mpg. Problem solved.

Do you think hybrids could be the reason for other vehicles to be flunky on the automotive market? Well, we got the consumers choice, manufacturers i think must watch out for this... http://innerautoparts.blogspot.com/

I agree w/turnsy - anyone shopping for a hybrid these days is gonna look at the bottom line, mpg. any TH looking for a hybrid is gonna get a small one like a prius or civic.

I have a wealthy executive friend who chose the Ford Escape hybrid over the Lexus hybrid based only on mpg. Of course he is someone who wouldnt be caught dead in a small sedan, hybrid or otherwise.

Hey, it's a step, right?

The new Consumer Reports car issue is out - and the prius and civic get the highest marks, as usual.

Too bad Consumer Reports also reported the truth about hybrids, they cost more money. The tax breaks fuel savings don't offset this even after 10 years of ownership (this assumes a person drives 15K miles a year). For some the price difference is offset by the desire to help the environment and/or make a political statement. Many consumers shop for cars on price or monthly payment and pay little attention to MPG. I fear that until the price comes down hybrids will remain a small segment of the market place. I know some will get mad at me for saying this but it's the truth.

I've always found the double-standards for hybrids ridiculous.

Journalists always end their hybrid articles with: "So, lets see how long it will take to pay for itself!"

Yet nobody tries to see if any other car will save you money. Will that engine upgrade pay for itself? That sunroof? The bigger model over the compact?

Simply ridiculous. Nobody should expect to get an advanced hybrid drivetrain for free, especially since it's still relatively new technology. Prices will go down with time and mass production, but still...

A quality laptop computer can cost between $1,500 and $3,000, yet people complain that they have to pay 4-6k more for a car's cutting-edge drivetrain (yet they pay for that V6 or V8 upgrade that will cost them a lot and never pay back for itself).

"I know some will get mad at me for saying this but it's the truth."

What you're referring to is not "the truth" but rather a specific publication's take on things. Their assumptions about the real-world fuel economy (based on their limited tests) simply don't match the real world data one can see at a place like Greenhybrid. Also, most financial analyses don't factor in depreciation differences etc, and the bottom line is that there are far too many variables and unknowns at this point to give a solid answer one way or another.

What I can say is that this year's tax breaks, for some hybrids, are almost equal to the price premium of having a hybrid power plant, so the payback period for those vehicles is very short.

But even if you factor out tax breaks, the gas savings still pays for the price premium, one way or another. The thing people forget is that even if you sell the car, the person buying it from you will save gas compared to a non-hybrid version, and therefore it will command a premium in resale. That's why one needs to consider depreciation, which is the biggest cost of a car in its first few years, when making these calculations.

The supposed "truth" that "hybrids aren't worth it" is a piece of propaganda pushed by Detroit and others, and a lot of people buy into it because it sounds appropriate.

And I will also echo MGR's comments about other upgrades to vehicles -- why are none of those ever microanalyzed in terms of their payback? At least hybrids actually offset the cost of the price premium with gas savings. Not sure what spinning wheels, custom paint jobs, and leather seats do for resale. They certainly don't decrease the cost of the vehicle on a per mile basis.

MGR your comments are true to a point but there are many cars that real world MPG close to hybrids real world fuel economy and cost thousands less.

It comes down to: If your making a car choice to save yourself money then a hybrid is a poor choice. Your fuel savings are offset by higher car paymetn

If your willing to pay to make a statement or have the latest thing (I'm a geek and I love all the tech wrapped up in Hybrids) then that's fine too.

It comes down to what's important to you.

Tim, could you please be more specific and list some cars that compete in real world mileage with the Prius (not just on the highway, but city too).

I'd also like to know if these cars are as big (Prius is a mid-size like Camry), as safe (very good crash ratings) and have AT-PZEV or SULEV emissions (Toyota engineers have said a few times that their priority was emissions, not fuel efficiency).

Some hybrids are more about making statements (the luxury and "muscles" ones), but even those usually have decent mpg (esp. in the city, compared to other vehicles of similar size) and very low emissions.

"but there are many cars that real world MPG close to hybrids real world fuel economy and cost thousands less."

And they usually are inferior cars in terms of performance, size, amenities, etc. You're now referring to the "Corolla objection", I assume.

Run the numbers, and the Prius still comes out on top relative to the Corolla.

You can run out and get a '92 Civic VX which will get 45 city/55 hwy -- but you're also getting a car from 1992, with 1992 technology and amenities, as well as lots of miles on it.

The basic thrust of these objections about hybrids are asserting that they are economically irrational to buy -- that is, people are buying them out of emotion, trendiness, etc.

Fact is, most vehicle purchases have a fat mix of rationality and irrationality to them -- and usually more of the latter than the former. So, again, why is it that people seem obsessed with the "rationality", down to the penny, of buying a hybrid? And when the numbers are run showing that they're economically rational to buy, all the false objections about battery life, safety, ridiculously low fuel economy assumptions, overstatement of the hybrid price premium, etc come out over and over again.

And when I see that, I ask myself why certain people are so intent on trying to knock down the emerging hybrid technology.

Ok I'll admit that to get to the "close to hybrid" MPG you end up in a smaller car with less features but can someone with a hybrid post the real cost numbers then.
That would be:

What you paid including dealer markup, Miles driven per year, Real MPG you've gotten and any fed or state tax breaks. We'll assume any other costs will be the same.

We can go back and forth on this but unless anyone can provide evidence that many news sources are wrong my mind remains unchanged. Why would CR lie, they are not supported by ads. They buy their test cars from dealers etc.

BTW I've heard of a lady paying 8 thousand over MSRP for a Prius. Think she'll every make that back?

Tim would be correct except that Consumer Reports retracted their statement about hybrids costing more money. Turns out they can save money. Maybe next time, Tim. Maybe next time.

Link

Anecdotal evidence of one lady paying 8k above MSRP is not quite a solid basis for an argument the same way that I won't make an argument based on anecdotal evidence that some people have sold their 2002 Prius in 2004-2005 for more money than they had paid (talk about payback - only antique cars can claim to be able to do that). The shortage of hybrids (which speaks to their desirability) is a temporary situation and it is true that it can affect their price, but it is not something that should be held against the technology itself.

My argument above was that it doesn't matter if the hybrid pays back for itself since that standard is applied to NO OTHER CAR. A car is not an investment.

All that matters is the mpg, the emissions, the safety, the budget of the person looking for a car, etc. 20-something thousands for a Prius is within the budget of a large portion of car-buyers. Is it more expensive than a Corolla? Yes. Is it the same as a Corolla? Absolutely not.

Alright I'll correct myself, but then I guess you'd have to be paying MSRP and not stealership markup.

Consumer Reports Corrects Itself on Cars
John O'Dell
March 8, 2006

Consumer Reports magazine said it erred in maintaining in an article in its April issue that none of the gasoline-electric hybrid cars and sport utility vehicles sold in the United States would save owners enough money in five years of use to make up for their higher prices.

Including fuel savings and tax credits, Consumer Reports said, the Toyota Prius hybrid would save about $400 over five years and the Honda Civic hybrid would save about $300 compared with conventionally powered models.

The magazine said it overestimated depreciation of the cars in arriving at its initial conclusion.

Anonymous Poster our comments crossed there, I saw the correction and posted it as you can see. MGR I have read accounts of many people paying over MSRP for the Prius. With only a $400 margin you don't have to overpay by much. I guess I just like to argue a point, I'm not against hybrids or any other tech that will save fuel, clean up the air etc. The point of my first post was what CR pointed out. If your buying a hybrid and thinking your saving a bunch of money your fooling yourself. Saving the planet is another matter and every gallon of fuel not burnt is a step in the right direction.

"Why would CR lie, they are not supported by ads."

I didn't say they lied. I said that claiming what they have concluded is "the truth" is not valid.

"BTW I've heard of a lady paying 8 thousand over MSRP for a Prius. Think she'll every make that back?"

As MGR said, anecdotes are not relevant when the discussion is about the overall situation. Dealers mark up the Solstice and the Mustang. Do we hear outcries about them and the "irrationality" of buying them? I bet you can't find any sort of financial critique about either one of them -- and especially to the extent we keep hearing it about hybrids.

I haven't run the numbers lately, but let's take a quick look at fueleconomy.gov and Honda's website.

According to the former, here's an automatic non-hybrid Civic compared with a hybrid Civic:
here

Using the EPA estimates, the hybrid saves $328.94 in fuel costs in a year. Using user MPG figures, the hybrid saves $365.91 per year.

The tax credit for a Civic Hybrid is $2,100:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid_new.shtml

So, if you just restrict the analysis to these variables over a 5 year period, then the hybrid saves between $3,744.71 and $3,929.53.

Given that the MSRP for the Civic Hybrid is $21,850.00, then a non-hybrid Civic would need to cost less than $17,920.47 to save money. The LX with automatic costs $17,310 and the EX with automatic starts at $19,060. You can examine the trim differences between the hybrid and the non-hybrids to determine the exact "hybrid premium" if you like. But this cursory look shows the savings to put it in the ballpark with mid-level trims of the non-hybrid.

Things like depreciation aren't known yet. In fact, if anything, used hybrids have been commanding pretty high prices because of the high demand for new ones and high fuel prices. And until we know how durable any extra componentry is, weighed against the resale value of higher fuel mileage, depreciation is going to remain highly variable and unknown for a while.

You can make the financial models more sophisticated by factoring in insurance premiums (which seem to favor hybrids), the opportunity cost of capital (ie, what the flow of funds - from the price premium saved for the non-hybrids to the gas savings for the hybrids - is worth), to even putting opportunity cost of time calculations in (since certain hybrids get HOV lane exemptions in certain places).

The point is, there's no solidity to the financial models and they're ultimately going to depend on individual factors (like how well one drives, how much one drives, how much one pays for the vehicle, how well one maintains it, how well one negotiates the sale price upon resale, etc).

But if people are going to be applying these strict criteria about financial rationality to hybrids, perhaps we should start doing it for all vehicles. I highly doubt that's ever going to happen.

I think we all agree that the increased fuel economy and lowered emissions are good, so what's left is the money aspect.

In my opinion, it is fairly irrelevant as long as the vehicle is within the price range that the buyer was willing to pay anyway and that the person is in under no illusion that they will save tons of money (and I doubt that's even possible now that pretty much all articles about hybrids mention the money aspect). In fact, it has been shown that people notice the money they have to pay when they fill up a lot more than money paid or saved when they first buy the vehicle. It's a psychological factor for sure; Once you've paid for the car, that money is out of sight, out of mind, and you get used to it. But gas money is always close to the wallet..

Personally, I think that what is too often forgotten in fuel cost analyses is the impact that peak oil can have on gas prices. Lets say you keep your hybrid for 6-7 years. How much will it cost for a gallon/liter of gasoline in 6-7 years? Most journalists who do projections seem to think that the future will be like the past and that gas prices will stay fairly stable. That's not certain at all..

We'll know more about that next hurricane season, I suppose.

"Personally, I think that what is too often forgotten in fuel cost analyses is the impact that peak oil can have on gas prices. Lets say you keep your hybrid for 6-7 years. How much will it cost for a gallon/liter of gasoline in 6-7 years?"

Right. I didn't even mention the "risk premium" aspect of a calculation. When you buy a high-efficiency vehicle you are buffering yourself from price fluctations relative to someone dependent on a less efficient vehicle. And because of that, there's a somewhat subjective value that can be assigned to that in and of itself (call it "high gas price potential insurance", then people would understand).

And you're also right about looking at a car and comparing it to other vehicles in its price range. A Prius costs about the same as a stripped Impala.

Gives you some persepctive.

That must be why there are no more hybrid ads on prime time television... for the last 6 weeks, and I keep track of such things, it's all been for SUVs and pick-up trucks... they are all dead ducks in huge parking lots... Oh, yeah... they gave away an Escape Hybrid on the Price is Right... Does that count?

I thought most hybrids were selling well except for the Escape and Accord hybrids. Even though I'm not fully conviced on the monitary front I'm really interested in what the Camary hybrid will cost. Motor Trend had a comparo test and some of the reactions were "that's one hell of a car" etc. Honda should have done this with the accord, give the 4 more power with a hybrid system instead of doing a hotrod which isn't selling well.

The 2007 Camry hybrid should indeed be a very interesting car, and I think Toyota got the balance right unlike Honda with the Accord:

The 2007 Camry hybrid will have as much horsepower as the 2006 Camry V6, better fuel economy and emissions than the 4 cyl version, and probably won't cost much more than the 2007 V6 version.

Aparently the Camry hybrid will be priced between the standard 4 and the V6.

About the only thing that I heard "bad" about it was that the trunk is 30% smaller than the non-hybrid version. Then again it should still be plenty large enough for weekly grocery duty.

My 91 Maxima is showing more wear than I'm willing to repair and the Hybrid Camry is one of a few cars I'm thinking about buying so I'm search the net for opinions and feedback. This has been an interesting thread. So I thought I would chip in my $.02.

Aside from the hybrid Camry w/leather, I would consider an Altima V6 w/leather & manual transimission. Here's some back of the envelope figures I came up with this morning.

My average yearly milage: 12000 miles

From Edmunds.com a 2006 Altima with the above features has a "TMV" value of $25397 with a 21 - 27 MPG rating.

Again from Edmunds.com, a 2007 hybrid Camry has a "TMV" value of $29352 (premium to the $27780 MSRP) with a 40 - 38 MPG rating.

I'm not going to take into account possible federal kickback money. I'll assume I would average 24 MPG in the Altima and 34 MPG in the Camry. I seem to remember 34 MPG experience in the hybrid Camry by somebody living in the southeast USA so hence the lower number.

At 24 MPG in the Altima I would go through 500 gallons of gasoline per year and assuming $2.75 per gallon average through the life of the car then I'm looking to spend $1375 per year for gasoline.

Plug in the Camry Hybrid numbers and I wind up spending about $971 per year for gasoline.

The yearly difference in fuel costs are $404. The difference in initial price of the cars is $3955. $3955/$404 means it would take 9.79 years for me to recoop the cost of the hybrid Camry.

Given that I've held onto my Maxima for 15 years I don't see me having problem holding onto a Camry for at least 10 years to break even. To me it would be worth it because I'm much more of a cheap bastard than a TH. If I could get the hybrid Camry at the MSRP ($27780) then the number improve to recoop the intial cost of the hybrid to be ~5.89 years.

I hadn't test drove any of these cars. However at this point I don't see the higher costs associated with a hybrid as a negative for me. The difference will be which one I like the most. What a concept!