How many people here really believe hydrogen for automobiles is ever going to become a reality, or ever be practical? I still can't wrap it around my head that if it takes more electricity to produce the hydrogen than the onboard fuel cell will generate, then why not simply store the electricity and save ourselves the trouble of building 10's of thousands of costly, hard to service and maintain hydrogen fueling stations all over the planet, when we already have a perfectly good and functioning electrical grid! I mean, am I the only one here who thinks a better battery would solve everything?

Think of a fuel cell as analogous to a battery. Then compare the life cycle toxicity issues associated with lead, Lithium, or any other high performance battery design. Consider the power plant emissions associated with battery charging or embodied in the battery manufacture. The risk management issues are multiple and complex. A simple trade-off analysis based on life cycle Joules input per mile traveled is only a partial insight into pros and cons. At the end of the day, there is room for both subjective judgment and for unexpected technology breakthroughs in both systems. May the best one(s) win.

Whatever the fate of the Hydrogen car - she's using her celeb status to do a little eco-trend setting - can't go wrong with that

I suspect the hydrogen myth will die as the nanotube supercapacitors become affordable, and make electric cars more cost effective.
The huge generation efficiency, storage and distribution problems will prevent hydrogen from ever going mainstream.

Hydrogens big drawback is it's lack of good energy density as compared with conventional fuels. Even after it gets as much dvelopment, it wills till suffer from this.

Hydrogen's big appeal right now is as a supplement to diesel. On board generation of hydrogen in a diesel vehichle, burning both simultaneously, results in improved fuel econommmy, and lowered emmissions. I wondder if this works with SVO/WVO??

Ironically, one very large market for hydrogen right now is to cool the turbines used in coal fired generation plants. And guess where is is inefficiently made? We did not leave the stone age for running out of stones.

Think of a fuel cell as analogous to a battery.

[That's my point, it's not analogous. A fuel cell is not a battery, it's a fuel cell. It doesn't store electricity, it produces electricity, stored in liquid fuel. They both extract electricity from a stored medium, but while the fuel cell does so by extracting from a liquid medium, the battery on the other hand does so from a solid state medium. Think of batteries as cutting out the middle man.]

Then compare the life cycle toxicity issues associated with lead

[Who ever mentioned anything about lead? Besides, other than a few really pathetic cases, lead recycling in the West is one of the cleanest, safest and most efficiently managed recycling operation there is! But it's a mute point anyway, because there's no need for lead in batteries anymore.]

, Lithium

[Lithium is not all that toxic... they feed it to mental patients for Pete sake. Lithium is in great supply on this planet. If we were able to get lead recycling under control, lithium is not going to be a big problem, certainly not as big a problem as the chaos a hydrogen infrastructure would suddenly create.]

, or any other high performance battery design. Consider the power plant emissions associated with battery charging

[In fact "less" than in the production of hydrogen fuel, for the simple reason it takes more electricity to produce hydrogen fuel for cars than if we simply stored the electricity produced in the first place directly into the vehicles! Plus only in France is the electric vehicle industry joined at the hip with the nuclear industry. Here by 2020, 20% of our electrical needs will come from alternative sources to oil, coal and nuke. Hopefully, by the end of the Century, it will be 99.99%!]

or embodied in the battery manufacture.

[Battery manufacture, especially solid-state battery manufacture, is a lot cleaner and safer than fuel cell production. I just visited another NiMH factory yesterday, and you could eat off the floor. Not a single toxic compound along the assembly line! The risk associated with liquid chemistry of fuel cells (methanol, pressurized hydrogen, etc...) spills, leaks, are a lot more risky long term than any solid-state battery assembly. Once the liquid chemistry element is removed from battery production, toxicity will no longer be a big issue.]

The risk management issues are multiple and complex. A simple tradeoff analysis based on life cycle Joules input per mile traveled is only a partial insight into pros and cons.

[Yes, my point exactly, hydrogen fuel cells are jumping out of the frying pan into the fire! Another con job from the folks who crushed 1000 EV1s rather than keep using as development prototypes. The oil companies put the car companies up to it, ask any Tom, Dick and Harry on the street. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to grok them politics. Time we jumped out of the vicious circle.]

At the end of the day, there is room for both subjective judgment and for unexpected technology breakthroughs in both systems.

[Yes, and Dr. Donald Sadoway solid-state Li-ion slimcell is the fat lady singing! Plus rapid charging stations cost a few mere thousand dollars, while hydrogen pumping stations cost ten of thousands of dollars. This will not change. The price of rapid chargers will drop dramatically in mass production, because there is virtually no maintenance, while hydrogen pumping stations on the other hand will continue to require constant vigilance.]

May the best one(s) win.

[May the hydrogen fuel cell pirates sink at last, to quote Jethro Tull.]

http://www.theaircar.com/

Link to site of car that runs on compressed air.
It uses no batteries.
Here's the question.
It the compression of air any less efficient than the production of electricity?
Both are energy losers but which one is the bigger energy loser?
Surely air powered vehicles would pollute less than electric vehicles because they don't use batteries.
Air powered cars could be built much lighter because they don't need to carry batteries and thus need less energy to propel.

Problem with the air car is that is progressively loses power as the air pressure decreases in the holding tank. There's been quite a few toys like this. I remember Mattel had a set of Hot Wheels one year you compressed with a bicycle pump. The other thing is the compressor necessary to jam that much air into a tank small enough to fit in a passenger vehicle requires a huge amount of electricity to run, and again, same silly thing... why not simply store the electricity made first time around rather than transfer it to air under pressure? The air car, even if it has selected applications, has little commercial chance of success on a large scale.

I am not familiar with her, but it's nice to see that someone young and famous has their head on right.

How refreshing! :)

I like LiP batteries too. Not putting them down at all. However, at my last look, the PVDF flouride encasements common to most LiP battery production (rigid and film) is the identical material used in most fuel cell assembly casements. Chase that doggy back up the supply chain and you'll be in for a toxic surprise. Chase it down at end of life and answer me how something with such tremendously high material and energy inputs will be recycled, especially the Li-Polymer version? Nothing is perfect and to imply that one vs the other is a chasm is just wrong.

Hazards of Li Carbonate
======
Toxicological Data:
Oral rat LD50: 525 mg/kg. Investigated as a tumorigen, mutagen, reproductive effector.
Reproductive Toxicity:
Has caused teratogenic effects in humans.

See also prop 65 link here: http://www.lbl.gov/ehs/chsp/html/repro__toxins.shtml

To RemyC

Air compressors can be powered in the same way as electric generators. That is, they can be powered by a diesel engine or hydro power or whatever.
I envision air filling stations that use a large efficient compressor that accomplishes the job in about the same time as it takes to fill a car with gasoline. Smaller in-car or at-home pumps would normally be used only as a backup. I think they have partially gotten around the problem of decreasing air pressure by a novel connecting rod that holds the piston at top dead center for 70% of the crankshaft rotation. Also more range is simply a matter of increasing the size of the tanks or using multiple tanks.
The tanks are light and, of course, what's in them is as light as......air!
The main question is, is the compression, storage, and usage of air as efficient as the generation, storage, and usage of electricity. My roommate, who is a scientist, would not conclude that electricity is more efficient.
It's an interesting question.

I saw Q'orianka Kilcher in The New World and thought her performance was worthy of an Oscar. You can view photos of Q'Orianke that I've collected and posted in this Gallery:

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=117450&threadid=691241

It's also nice that she's environmentally concious at only 15 years old.

The World Jewel Forum http://www.JewelForum.com/

q orianka kilcher is making me feel sick.she doesn't know how to act- at all! first learn how to act, and then act with colin!! YOU DON'T deserve to act with that sexy hunk, colin!

im glad she has a environmental commitment, for a 15 year old that is rare. I like the statement she said about walking down the red carpet in a $10,000 dress. She is beautiful, wise and a very good young actress!

Hydrogen is pretty reliable,but I prefer biomass fuels like this, www.hemp4fuel.com in cars like this,http://www.ecofibre.com.au/otherprods.html Scroll to the bottom of the page and you'll see how both the fuel and cars are GROWN FROM THE SOIL!!