Are Silent Hybrids a Problem?

Maybe something subtle. Like those "deer whistles" you can stick on your car that emit a very high-pitched sound (silent to humans), quiet cars can have something that emits a sound just on the edge of perception.

The article mentions that a possible solution would be to have the radiator's fan turn on when the car is in electric-only mode.

That might even be possible to do with just a software update, but I'm not sure.

This is just one more red herring from the anti-hybrid types in Detroit, Houston, etc.

Yeah, let's add to the noise pollution problem. Brilliant.

Joseph, I think it would be possible to add a small sound to hybrids without "adding to the noise pollution problem".

Of course I'm totally against the idea of adding beeping sounds and such.

But the radiator fan idea, for example. I don't think it's something you would hear from very far and not an annoying sound, but if you are close enough to the car, it might make a difference in certain situations (ie. parking lots).

Add noise that is just loud enough to hear but not so loud to create noise pollution. Blind pedestrians can't just "use their eyes", so they need the sound que.

"Add noise that is just loud enough to hear but not so loud to create noise pollution."

Adding any noise adds to noise pollution.

You know, this is something I don't think a lot fo people take seriously enough. Sure, people move to the suburbs for more space, less crime, etc, but part of the reason they want space is to control their environment - ie, be free from the downsides of urbanity, which involve air and noise pollution.

There's something about walking in silence (and by that I don't mean lack of sound, but rather lack of man-made noise) that gets one in touch with things that are important. It makes you a better person. And if you keep denying that to people, or they never even realize that it's not there, then it makes them harder, meaner, more disconnected from nature and one another.

I'm not trying to blow this specific "issue" (ie, about hybrids being relatively quiet in all-electric mode), but part of the reason there are so many cars and the society is so car dependent is that people use cars to get away from the negatives of cars. And it's a vicious cycle.

But this thing with hybrids is still a red herring. I've seen it (and the "concern" about emergency workers getting shocked etc etc) by one hybrid-basher after another. It's best not to take that bait.

40,000+ people die from auto accidents every year. Fat little did the noisiness of normal vehicles do to stop that slaughter.

Hybrids cars are indeed very silent and vibration free to those within the cabin, but not really that much quiter in terms of road noise. The main sound that cars make (when not revving their engine) is tire noise, which increases logrithmicly with speed. Even at 15 mph or so a prius makes plenty of tire noise to be heard in my quiet neighborhood, and only get louderr with higher speed. I never any trouble hearing them coming when i cycle.

Could it be that low rolling-resistance tires make less noise? Hmm.

OK, unnatural noises (like beeping) hit a nerve with tree huggers.

How about the rattle of a dive-bombing humming bird, or the panting of a dog/coyote, or the song of the flycatcher to perk up a walker/rider/driver. Maybe the clip-clop of a horse, or a buffalo for the pre-columbians, where the tempo increases up to a canter as the speed increases, could provide the cues for the aurally gifted.

Joseph,

That's 40,000 auto deaths per year in the US. Non-americans are people too! :) WHO estimated 1.2 MILLION auto-related deaths worldwide in 2002. Interesting summary here: http://www.ehponline.org/members/2004/112-11/spheres.html

When a friend of mine first got his Prius, he talked about getting a backup beeper for it. He ended up just being especially careful when backing up or pulling out of parking spots.
For those who are interested, beepers are available which plug into your reverse lights and come on automatically when you shift into reverse. So it's easy enough to reterofit your own car if you want. I do like the idea of it sounding like a rampaging buffalo rather than just beeping, though.

If only someone could get that "aaaaaahhhhh" noise that all the futuristic cars in the sci-fi movies make.

But seriously, if people are walking into streets and not looking because they didn't hear a car's engine, then I think that an accident was bound to happen to them anyway.

The Prius can be had with a camera that shows you (on the LCD, I suppose) what is behind the car when you back up. I suppose that might become a standard feature in the near future.

I have a friend who is totally blind. She was just about to step off the curb cuz she heard no cars. She was absolutely aghast when someone in the street at a car level started talking to her saying "can't you tell the car is on?" She was scared/interested.

If you get cars that are very quiet like hybrids that saves noise pollution greatly. Even conversational voices are softer (decibel wise) than a vacuum cleaner -- car engine noise. Adding a little more like even a beep like that produced by the beeping balls that blind people play with would not at all overpower even a conversational voice let alone match a typical gas guzzling car engine. Even a whole parking lot of beeps would be better than gas guzzling engine noises and let people have an additional warning.

There has to be a middle ground. I pray my friend who is blind does not get run over by someone who, like that one fully sighted lady in the article, who didn't see cuz of their blind spot. There are just so many distractions for blind people to have to rely on drivers to be ever cautious/watchful. Blind people should be able to travel SAFELY and FREELY as possible in their neighborhoods and not be holed up at home 100% dependent on others to get around because streets with cars are too numerous. It could take hours to wait for help, especially in the suburbs, to cross one street and then have to wait to cross another. My friend says special busses for the disabled are slow, often-late, and costly compared to fixed-route transit busses.

Very few cities have enough or bridges to allow a blind person to bypass the need to cross a street with cars on it.

"I have a friend who is totally blind. She was just about to step off the curb cuz she heard no cars. She was absolutely aghast when someone in the street at a car level started talking to her saying "can't you tell the car is on?" She was scared/interested."

How does your friend not get hit by bicycles, Segways, and electric buses?

I think that's something that also needs mentioning -- electric buses. How is it that hybrids are this "silent menace", yet towns like Seattle and San Francisco have been running electric buses (which are factors more massive than a hybrid automobile) for years?

As I said, it's just one more disingenous objection that was started by people who have an economic interest in trying to delegitimize hybrid technology, and it pains me to see people taking the bait - and worse, thinking of ways to make more noise, instead of celebrating a technology which makes a little less of it.

And Dave - yes, I know. I neglected to put that qualifier in there about it being a US-only statistic.

The article says nobody has been hit from a quiet Prius or other hybrid auto.

NOBODY.

This is a not-problem looking for some ridiculous solution.

algibson, actually, the article says:

"Traffic officials and police do not know of any cases in which pedestrians were harmed by the popular hybrids. Collision reports don't have a provision for considering whether the quiet nature of the car is a factor."

So that's the officials the journalist talked to, but the important part is the end where it says that collision reports probably wouldn't mention it if the quietness of the car was the cause.

Not saying it's a big problem, but it might become one when hybrids become more popular.

You buy cannister fog horns at any boat yard!

First, there are no electric busses where my friend lives. Segways are almost non-existant (I haven't seen one where she lives) and the laws in their regard are widely varying from city to city ). My friend has a guide dog and her dog watches out for bikes - most bicyclists don't go Lance Armstrong fast so the dog has a chance to react and gets in front of her if a bike suddenly starts. On sidewalks the dog just maneauvers her out of harms way. The time with the hybrid was when she didn't have the dog so I don't know how her guide dog would react if it had been with her at her side when she met the hybrid. Hybrids though are must faster though so I don't know if the dog would have enough time to react.

PS. Some people with physical disabilities who previously used wheelchairs can use leg braces to stand on a segway and PREFER to use a Segway to get around . But a lot of them are being denied access to go into museums and the like which is against the law to deny access in the US - read it in a newspaper article somewhere a while back so can't comment more

Well, the ideal of a silent city centre - WONDERFUL - why on earth would we want to start degrading that!!! It would be easier to place a sender in cars which alerts a device carried by blind people that a vehicle is approaching (or departing...) perhaps by a rising or falling tone?

natural selection.......
enough said

If every electric vehicle were blasting Iron Maiden, this wouldn't be a problem.

I could see this article being relevant if it was specifically about hybrids running in electric-only mode being a menace to the blind attempting to cross the street.

HOWEVER, the average Joe should AT LEAST know to look before crossing the street. I'm really disappointed to see an article like this on Treehugger.

I think that cars are big dangerous things and that requiring them to make a certain amount of noise isn't any more unreasonable than requiring big trucks to beep when they back up.

On the other hand, I like quiet. It's nice. What's a guy to do?

I've always wanted a car that makes that makes the same noise as the Jetson's spaceship.

I would guess this would be less of a problem for cars and more of a problem for electric scooters and motorcycles. Which can travel at a high rate of speed without a lot of noise.

Puh-leeze! How wonderful it would be if this world were a bit quieter. I am looking forward to the day when loud combustion engines are things of the past. Does anyone know what real silence sounds like anymore? Look both ways! Look in your mirror (if you are driving!) Practice safety and everyone will pick it up like it has always been that way. Trust me.

I think pedestrians should wear squeaky shoes so they don't sneak up on other pedestrians.

How about drivers actually give pedestrians the right of way and no assume we're going to run away in terror.

While I don't see this as an attack on hybrids I think it's silly. Bikes have been in wide use longer than cars and people don't get run over by them. The geeky side of me would love to have a quiet "Jetsons" sound when moving a low speed in a parking lot. People in the parking lots of large stores and malls are often what my wife calls TOP, Totally Oblivious People for the way they walk in front of cars.

Let's imagine that, originally, cars were silent to begin with. If that were the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that something has made noise in the past shouldn't dictate the future. To suggest that all vehicles for the rest of time must make noise seems a little silly to me. I'm sure there is a better solution for the blind person concern.

Electric buses are way louder than hybrids. And one of the reasons blind people don't get hit as much by bikes are that there are fewer bikes on the road. I can't believe that people are upset about the idea of making hybrids safer for everyone.

It's not all that new a thing. A few years back I worked for the county light rail system. The trains were very quiet, more so from in front ( you might hear them pass, but not hear the coming at you. ) In the San Jose, CA downtown area the trains pass through a pedestrian mall where people are coming and going from every direction. It was terrifying since people would just jump in front of you with no warning. When passing through that area you were poised to hit emergency braking and dump sand in front of the wheels.

Eventually that had to have the trains ring the bells when passing through these and similar areas. The result was more noise than a car passing through might make.

A similar thing happens on a local creekside walking/biking path. Bicyclists often ride up behind pedestrians at a good rate of speed, intending to pass silently by you, missing you by inches. On weekends it got so that sidestepping around a puddle was like changing lanes in a car in traffic.

While looking both ways is important, I put a big part of the responsibility on the driver who's approaching a pedestrian at speed and has not made eye contact. If you know they can't hear you, and you can see them, then you have to avoid them.

I would like to hear the "Jetsons" car sound. That would be great.

Um, hello? What are car horns for? Duh.

And since when did people with eyesight not have the brains to look both ways before crossing. This is crap we learned in first grade, people.

As an everyday bicycle commuter in an Urban area I can't say that I've found the lack of noise in hybrids an issue. Here in my home of Olympia, WA, there are many Prius' on the roads and I find them little different from other compact cars in terms of road noise. I find most new compact cars are pretty quiet and their main noise is road/tire noise. I much prefer being passed by these cars than the gigantinormic diesel trucks and cars with modified tailpipes that make very loud noises.

Why the heck would we want to add sound to cars - with only hybrids on the road - I might actually be able to hear the birds chirping even when I'm in traffic - wouldn't that be a nice change of pace.

Joseph, you keep glossing over the basic issue that several have pointed out, including me.

Blind people must have noise input to detect objects around them.

The hybrid busses you mention make TONS of noise. For starters they do not travel exclusively on electric; their diesel engines are always running at high speeds when they are moving. The electric is just an assist, like in the Honda Civic. Cars like the Toyota Prius do run exclusively on electric at times, so are much quieter. Pure electric vehicles obviously fall in this category, too.

I love my house in the country, away from almost all vehicle noise. But I do want my (future) electric vehicle to be loud enough that I don't run over my kids - or a blind person.

Some noise is necessary for safety. Let's say a noise that would be audible at 50 feet when the car is moving slower than 20 MPH. Above than normal tire/wind noise would take over and the safety noise would turn off. If all the cars in NYC were like that you would have a much quieter city, and one that would be safe for the blind to get around in.

i live in Vancouver and its a pretty vertical city with lots of traffic in the downtown core at all hours. i often wonder (dream really) of hearing my city quiet from a lack of automobile noise.

as an avid sailor i can tell you there is nothing better than cutting the engine and hearing almost nothing. this is similar to Joseph's description of hearing no man-made noise.

adding a noise to any electric car or hybrid in electric mode is straightup pollution IMHO.

dm

I suppose that one way to look at it is that very quiet vehicles are rare now, but that as they become more popular people will get used to them and be more careful.

Some cars offer an option for infrared parking assist sensors that tells the driver when within a foot or so of a vehicle. How hard would it be to extend this concept so the car emits a warning noise when within a certain distance of heat emitting object (person or pet)? Possible to calibrate to max min closing speeds to filter out false alarms.

Incidentally, a coasting ICE powered car is fairly quiet as well.

As per what I was taught while learning to drive, I tap my horn before backing up. No extra noisemaker required. How about we just require drivers practice due diligence and leave it at that?

Whoever suggested squeeky shoes to avoide shocking other pedestrians - I wear my keys on my belt for exactly this reason. Really.

And none of this is going to help the deaf-and-blind - maybe we should make all the cars switch to knobbly tires so they shake the ground enough so people with neither vision nor hearing can feel the vibration of their approach. But then what will we do about the blind, deaf and paralyzed persons on our streets? Who will save them?

The linked article is people worrying about what might happen (but has not) and acting like it's a crisis.

Instead of saying do nothing. A solution is what is called for. One that doesn't add noise. Maybe the car emits a sound when idle that humans can't hear but a computer could and then the computer relays the info to the blind person via a hearing piece.

I guess blind people need designers to think of creative solutions. This is a site dealing with the environment AND good design. Curb cuts were originally laughed at and protested against, but once implemented mothers using strollers, those carrying things in roll-on bags, etc found them helpful.

Quiet is good and I bet blind people would enjoy the reduced/no exhaust fumes too. Talk about odor/air pollution waiting for the bus. There just needs to be more creativity in design I guess. What will be the next curb cut for an idling hybrid?

I love the Iron Maiden blasting idea.

The big problem with making the car louder is that mechanical noise = waste of energy from friction.

So cranking it is a good idea, and the car already has all the equipment installed.

But my almost as ingenious suggestion would be to stick a wind turbine generator on the car one that made enough noise to hear and give a little bouns power. As long as the car is moving it would be turning.

If nothing else you could use the extra power to crank up IRON MAIDEN!

Yep - I saw this coming about 12 months ago and went to patent office to register my wonderful downloadable motor noises system - you know, charge of the light brigade, Ferrari F40, Sherman tank - guess who got to it first? Only the world leading regsiterer of patents - Mercedes Benz....
Vor Sprung Durch Technik

Maybe they could have a recorded voice shouting:

"Attention, Idiot! Darwin is about to get you!"

To cross the street, you don't have an excuse for not looking unless you are blind.

But in a busy parking lot, with things moving all around you and lots of talls SUVs blocking your view, I can understand how a hybrid car could sneak up on you (though if the driver is going at the proper speed for a parking lot, I doubt that a collision is likely - problems usually arise when people are careless, it's rarely the quietness of the car alone, I think).

"The hybrid busses you mention make TONS of noise. For starters they do not travel exclusively on electric; their diesel engines are always running at high speeds when they are moving. The electric is just an assist, like in the Honda Civic."

Um, no. There are buses both in Seattle and San Francisco that are powered by overhead wires. If they lose connection with those wires, they stop. These buses are very silent and very quick from a dead stop.

Sea