Are Silent Hybrids a Problem?

Maybe something subtle. Like those "deer whistles" you can stick on your car that emit a very high-pitched sound (silent to humans), quiet cars can have something that emits a sound just on the edge of perception.

The article mentions that a possible solution would be to have the radiator's fan turn on when the car is in electric-only mode.

That might even be possible to do with just a software update, but I'm not sure.

This is just one more red herring from the anti-hybrid types in Detroit, Houston, etc.

Yeah, let's add to the noise pollution problem. Brilliant.

Joseph, I think it would be possible to add a small sound to hybrids without "adding to the noise pollution problem".

Of course I'm totally against the idea of adding beeping sounds and such.

But the radiator fan idea, for example. I don't think it's something you would hear from very far and not an annoying sound, but if you are close enough to the car, it might make a difference in certain situations (ie. parking lots).

Add noise that is just loud enough to hear but not so loud to create noise pollution. Blind pedestrians can't just "use their eyes", so they need the sound que.

"Add noise that is just loud enough to hear but not so loud to create noise pollution."

Adding any noise adds to noise pollution.

You know, this is something I don't think a lot fo people take seriously enough. Sure, people move to the suburbs for more space, less crime, etc, but part of the reason they want space is to control their environment - ie, be free from the downsides of urbanity, which involve air and noise pollution.

There's something about walking in silence (and by that I don't mean lack of sound, but rather lack of man-made noise) that gets one in touch with things that are important. It makes you a better person. And if you keep denying that to people, or they never even realize that it's not there, then it makes them harder, meaner, more disconnected from nature and one another.

I'm not trying to blow this specific "issue" (ie, about hybrids being relatively quiet in all-electric mode), but part of the reason there are so many cars and the society is so car dependent is that people use cars to get away from the negatives of cars. And it's a vicious cycle.

But this thing with hybrids is still a red herring. I've seen it (and the "concern" about emergency workers getting shocked etc etc) by one hybrid-basher after another. It's best not to take that bait.

40,000+ people die from auto accidents every year. Fat little did the noisiness of normal vehicles do to stop that slaughter.

Hybrids cars are indeed very silent and vibration free to those within the cabin, but not really that much quiter in terms of road noise. The main sound that cars make (when not revving their engine) is tire noise, which increases logrithmicly with speed. Even at 15 mph or so a prius makes plenty of tire noise to be heard in my quiet neighborhood, and only get louderr with higher speed. I never any trouble hearing them coming when i cycle.

Could it be that low rolling-resistance tires make less noise? Hmm.

OK, unnatural noises (like beeping) hit a nerve with tree huggers.

How about the rattle of a dive-bombing humming bird, or the panting of a dog/coyote, or the song of the flycatcher to perk up a walker/rider/driver. Maybe the clip-clop of a horse, or a buffalo for the pre-columbians, where the tempo increases up to a canter as the speed increases, could provide the cues for the aurally gifted.

Joseph,

That's 40,000 auto deaths per year in the US. Non-americans are people too! :) WHO estimated 1.2 MILLION auto-related deaths worldwide in 2002. Interesting summary here: http://www.ehponline.org/members/2004/112-11/spheres.html

When a friend of mine first got his Prius, he talked about getting a backup beeper for it. He ended up just being especially careful when backing up or pulling out of parking spots.
For those who are interested, beepers are available which plug into your reverse lights and come on automatically when you shift into reverse. So it's easy enough to reterofit your own car if you want. I do like the idea of it sounding like a rampaging buffalo rather than just beeping, though.

If only someone could get that "aaaaaahhhhh" noise that all the futuristic cars in the sci-fi movies make.

But seriously, if people are walking into streets and not looking because they didn't hear a car's engine, then I think that an accident was bound to happen to them anyway.

The Prius can be had with a camera that shows you (on the LCD, I suppose) what is behind the car when you back up. I suppose that might become a standard feature in the near future.

I have a friend who is totally blind. She was just about to step off the curb cuz she heard no cars. She was absolutely aghast when someone in the street at a car level started talking to her saying "can't you tell the car is on?" She was scared/interested.

If you get cars that are very quiet like hybrids that saves noise pollution greatly. Even conversational voices are softer (decibel wise) than a vacuum cleaner -- car engine noise. Adding a little more like even a beep like that produced by the beeping balls that blind people play with would not at all overpower even a conversational voice let alone match a typical gas guzzling car engine. Even a whole parking lot of beeps would be better than gas guzzling engine noises and let people have an additional warning.

There has to be a middle ground. I pray my friend who is blind does not get run over by someone who, like that one fully sighted lady in the article, who didn't see cuz of their blind spot. There are just so many distractions for blind people to have to rely on drivers to be ever cautious/watchful. Blind people should be able to travel SAFELY and FREELY as possible in their neighborhoods and not be holed up at home 100% dependent on others to get around because streets with cars are too numerous. It could take hours to wait for help, especially in the suburbs, to cross one street and then have to wait to cross another. My friend says special busses for the disabled are slow, often-late, and costly compared to fixed-route transit busses.

Very few cities have enough or bridges to allow a blind person to bypass the need to cross a street with cars on it.

"I have a friend who is totally blind. She was just about to step off the curb cuz she heard no cars. She was absolutely aghast when someone in the street at a car level started talking to her saying "can't you tell the car is on?" She was scared/interested."

How does your friend not get hit by bicycles, Segways, and electric buses?

I think that's something that also needs mentioning -- electric buses. How is it that hybrids are this "silent menace", yet towns like Seattle and San Francisco have been running electric buses (which are factors more massive than a hybrid automobile) for years?

As I said, it's just one more disingenous objection that was started by people who have an economic interest in trying to delegitimize hybrid technology, and it pains me to see people taking the bait - and worse, thinking of ways to make more noise, instead of celebrating a technology which makes a little less of it.

And Dave - yes, I know. I neglected to put that qualifier in there about it being a US-only statistic.

The article says nobody has been hit from a quiet Prius or other hybrid auto.

NOBODY.

This is a not-problem looking for some ridiculous solution.

algibson, actually, the article says:

"Traffic officials and police do not know of any cases in which pedestrians were harmed by the popular hybrids. Collision reports don't have a provision for considering whether the quiet nature of the car is a factor."

So that's the officials the journalist talked to, but the important part is the end where it says that collision reports probably wouldn't mention it if the quietness of the car was the cause.

Not saying it's a big problem, but it might become one when hybrids become more popular.

You buy cannister fog horns at any boat yard!

First, there are no electric busses where my friend lives. Segways are almost non-existant (I haven't seen one where she lives) and the laws in their regard are widely varying from city to city ). My friend has a guide dog and her dog watches out for bikes - most bicyclists don't go Lance Armstrong fast so the dog has a chance to react and gets in front of her if a bike suddenly starts. On sidewalks the dog just maneauvers her out of harms way. The time with the hybrid was when she didn't have the dog so I don't know how her guide dog would react if it had been with her at her side when she met the hybrid. Hybrids though are must faster though so I don't know if the dog would have enough time to react.

PS. Some people with physical disabilities who previously used wheelchairs can use leg braces to stand on a segway and PREFER to use a Segway to get around . But a lot of them are being denied access to go into museums and the like which is against the law to deny access in the US - read it in a newspaper article somewhere a while back so can't comment more

Well, the ideal of a silent city centre - WONDERFUL - why on earth would we want to start degrading that!!! It would be easier to place a sender in cars which alerts a device carried by blind people that a vehicle is approaching (or departing...) perhaps by a rising or falling tone?

natural selection.......
enough said

If every electric vehicle were blasting Iron Maiden, this wouldn't be a problem.

I could see this article being relevant if it was specifically about hybrids running in electric-only mode being a menace to the blind attempting to cross the street.

HOWEVER, the average Joe should AT LEAST know to look before crossing the street. I'm really disappointed to see an article like this on Treehugger.

I think that cars are big dangerous things and that requiring them to make a certain amount of noise isn't any more unreasonable than requiring big trucks to beep when they back up.

On the other hand, I like quiet. It's nice. What's a guy to do?

I've always wanted a car that makes that makes the same noise as the Jetson's spaceship.

I would guess this would be less of a problem for cars and more of a problem for electric scooters and motorcycles. Which can travel at a high rate of speed without a lot of noise.

Puh-leeze! How wonderful it would be if this world were a bit quieter. I am looking forward to the day when loud combustion engines are things of the past. Does anyone know what real silence sounds like anymore? Look both ways! Look in your mirror (if you are driving!) Practice safety and everyone will pick it up like it has always been that way. Trust me.

I think pedestrians should wear squeaky shoes so they don't sneak up on other pedestrians.

How about drivers actually give pedestrians the right of way and no assume we're going to run away in terror.

While I don't see this as an attack on hybrids I think it's silly. Bikes have been in wide use longer than cars and people don't get run over by them. The geeky side of me would love to have a quiet "Jetsons" sound when moving a low speed in a parking lot. People in the parking lots of large stores and malls are often what my wife calls TOP, Totally Oblivious People for the way they walk in front of cars.

Let's imagine that, originally, cars were silent to begin with. If that were the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that something has made noise in the past shouldn't dictate the future. To suggest that all vehicles for the rest of time must make noise seems a little silly to me. I'm sure there is a better solution for the blind person concern.

Electric buses are way louder than hybrids. And one of the reasons blind people don't get hit as much by bikes are that there are fewer bikes on the road. I can't believe that people are upset about the idea of making hybrids safer for everyone.

It's not all that new a thing. A few years back I worked for the county light rail system. The trains were very quiet, more so from in front ( you might hear them pass, but not hear the coming at you. ) In the San Jose, CA downtown area the trains pass through a pedestrian mall where people are coming and going from every direction. It was terrifying since people would just jump in front of you with no warning. When passing through that area you were poised to hit emergency braking and dump sand in front of the wheels.

Eventually that had to have the trains ring the bells when passing through these and similar areas. The result was more noise than a car passing through might make.

A similar thing happens on a local creekside walking/biking path. Bicyclists often ride up behind pedestrians at a good rate of speed, intending to pass silently by you, missing you by inches. On weekends it got so that sidestepping around a puddle was like changing lanes in a car in traffic.

While looking both ways is important, I put a big part of the responsibility on the driver who's approaching a pedestrian at speed and has not made eye contact. If you know they can't hear you, and you can see them, then you have to avoid them.

I would like to hear the "Jetsons" car sound. That would be great.

Um, hello? What are car horns for? Duh.

And since when did people with eyesight not have the brains to look both ways before crossing. This is crap we learned in first grade, people.

As an everyday bicycle commuter in an Urban area I can't say that I've found the lack of noise in hybrids an issue. Here in my home of Olympia, WA, there are many Prius' on the roads and I find them little different from other compact cars in terms of road noise. I find most new compact cars are pretty quiet and their main noise is road/tire noise. I much prefer being passed by these cars than the gigantinormic diesel trucks and cars with modified tailpipes that make very loud noises.

Why the heck would we want to add sound to cars - with only hybrids on the road - I might actually be able to hear the birds chirping even when I'm in traffic - wouldn't that be a nice change of pace.

Joseph, you keep glossing over the basic issue that several have pointed out, including me.

Blind people must have noise input to detect objects around them.

The hybrid busses you mention make TONS of noise. For starters they do not travel exclusively on electric; their diesel engines are always running at high speeds when they are moving. The electric is just an assist, like in the Honda Civic. Cars like the Toyota Prius do run exclusively on electric at times, so are much quieter. Pure electric vehicles obviously fall in this category, too.

I love my house in the country, away from almost all vehicle noise. But I do want my (future) electric vehicle to be loud enough that I don't run over my kids - or a blind person.

Some noise is necessary for safety. Let's say a noise that would be audible at 50 feet when the car is moving slower than 20 MPH. Above than normal tire/wind noise would take over and the safety noise would turn off. If all the cars in NYC were like that you would have a much quieter city, and one that would be safe for the blind to get around in.

i live in Vancouver and its a pretty vertical city with lots of traffic in the downtown core at all hours. i often wonder (dream really) of hearing my city quiet from a lack of automobile noise.

as an avid sailor i can tell you there is nothing better than cutting the engine and hearing almost nothing. this is similar to Joseph's description of hearing no man-made noise.

adding a noise to any electric car or hybrid in electric mode is straightup pollution IMHO.

dm

I suppose that one way to look at it is that very quiet vehicles are rare now, but that as they become more popular people will get used to them and be more careful.

Some cars offer an option for infrared parking assist sensors that tells the driver when within a foot or so of a vehicle. How hard would it be to extend this concept so the car emits a warning noise when within a certain distance of heat emitting object (person or pet)? Possible to calibrate to max min closing speeds to filter out false alarms.

Incidentally, a coasting ICE powered car is fairly quiet as well.

As per what I was taught while learning to drive, I tap my horn before backing up. No extra noisemaker required. How about we just require drivers practice due diligence and leave it at that?

Whoever suggested squeeky shoes to avoide shocking other pedestrians - I wear my keys on my belt for exactly this reason. Really.

And none of this is going to help the deaf-and-blind - maybe we should make all the cars switch to knobbly tires so they shake the ground enough so people with neither vision nor hearing can feel the vibration of their approach. But then what will we do about the blind, deaf and paralyzed persons on our streets? Who will save them?

The linked article is people worrying about what might happen (but has not) and acting like it's a crisis.

Instead of saying do nothing. A solution is what is called for. One that doesn't add noise. Maybe the car emits a sound when idle that humans can't hear but a computer could and then the computer relays the info to the blind person via a hearing piece.

I guess blind people need designers to think of creative solutions. This is a site dealing with the environment AND good design. Curb cuts were originally laughed at and protested against, but once implemented mothers using strollers, those carrying things in roll-on bags, etc found them helpful.

Quiet is good and I bet blind people would enjoy the reduced/no exhaust fumes too. Talk about odor/air pollution waiting for the bus. There just needs to be more creativity in design I guess. What will be the next curb cut for an idling hybrid?

I love the Iron Maiden blasting idea.

The big problem with making the car louder is that mechanical noise = waste of energy from friction.

So cranking it is a good idea, and the car already has all the equipment installed.

But my almost as ingenious suggestion would be to stick a wind turbine generator on the car one that made enough noise to hear and give a little bouns power. As long as the car is moving it would be turning.

If nothing else you could use the extra power to crank up IRON MAIDEN!

Yep - I saw this coming about 12 months ago and went to patent office to register my wonderful downloadable motor noises system - you know, charge of the light brigade, Ferrari F40, Sherman tank - guess who got to it first? Only the world leading regsiterer of patents - Mercedes Benz....
Vor Sprung Durch Technik

Maybe they could have a recorded voice shouting:

"Attention, Idiot! Darwin is about to get you!"

To cross the street, you don't have an excuse for not looking unless you are blind.

But in a busy parking lot, with things moving all around you and lots of talls SUVs blocking your view, I can understand how a hybrid car could sneak up on you (though if the driver is going at the proper speed for a parking lot, I doubt that a collision is likely - problems usually arise when people are careless, it's rarely the quietness of the car alone, I think).

"The hybrid busses you mention make TONS of noise. For starters they do not travel exclusively on electric; their diesel engines are always running at high speeds when they are moving. The electric is just an assist, like in the Honda Civic."

Um, no. There are buses both in Seattle and San Francisco that are powered by overhead wires. If they lose connection with those wires, they stop. These buses are very silent and very quick from a dead stop.

Seattle also has had dual-mode buses in the past -- running on electric when there are overhead wires, running on diesel when there aren't. Metro now has hybrid buses (which I haven't ridden yet), and perhaps that's what you're referring to.

So, if someone can give me accident and fatality statistics between these buses and blind pedestrians, that would be nice, since these buses have been around far longer than hybrids have, and since they're much more massive, have far longer stopping distances and do far more damage if they hit someone.

And as I mentioned about bicycles, they can sure as heck kill a pedestrian, too.

"Some noise is necessary for safety. Let's say a noise that would be audible at 50 feet when the car is moving slower than 20 MPH."

According to the article, this is how much noise they make at 35 mph:
"A hybrid clipping along at 35 mph emits 75 decibels -- about as loud as a vacuum cleaner."

One of the things about hybrids is that they often run their engines at low speed, too, since someone is either accelerating hard or the battery is running too low for the power management system. And at the speeds at which it runs in all-electric, the stopping distance is very short. And it's not like they're dead quiet - they rattle, have tire noise, etc, just like any car.

Playing the "blind card" is clever propaganda by the people putting this red herring out. It takes people's natural sympathies (and general left attitudes about accomodating people with physical challenges), so that this becomes an emotional and not a rational discussion.

Let's start with some real-world accident and fatality data between "silent" vehicles that preceded hybrids and blind pedestrians, then perhaps we can see what we're talking about. My guess is that this is a non-issue, otherwise we would have heard quite a bit about it with respect to electric buses (especially since blind people obviously use transit quite a bit).

The law in most places gives a pedestrian the right of way, even at intersections without a stoplight or stop sign. So, you'd have to be talking about a situation where the hybrid driver (who is probably more conscientious than the average driver) is not paying attention and a blind person darts out into traffic. Could this happen? 5,000 people (and I'm sure very few of them are blind) get hit and killed by cars in the US every year, so obviously accidents can happen.

Should we push this logic? Kids have to walk, right? So, should all vehicles be made so low that kids can see over them so they can more safely cross streets?

At some point common sense has to dictate that we can't make the world completely safe. And I certainly don't think upping the level of noise around us is going to help.

"The hybrid busses you mention make TONS of noise. For starters they do not travel exclusively on electric; their diesel engines are always running at high speeds when they are moving. The electric is just an assist, like in the Honda Civic."

Um, no. There are buses both in Seattle and San Francisco that are powered by overhead wires. If they lose connection with those wires, they stop. These buses are very silent and very quick from a dead stop.

Seattle also has had dual-mode buses in the past -- running on electric when there are overhead wires, running on diesel when there aren't. Metro now has hybrid buses (which I haven't ridden yet), and perhaps that's what you're referring to.

So, if someone can give me accident and fatality statistics between these buses and blind pedestrians, that would be nice, since these buses have been around far longer than hybrids have, and since they're much more massive, have far longer stopping distances and do far more damage if they hit someone.

And as I mentioned about bicycles, they can sure as heck kill a pedestrian, too.

"Some noise is necessary for safety. Let's say a noise that would be audible at 50 feet when the car is moving slower than 20 MPH."

According to the article, this is how much noise they make at 35 mph:
"A hybrid clipping along at 35 mph emits 75 decibels -- about as loud as a vacuum cleaner."

One of the things about hybrids is that they often run their engines at low speed, too, since someone is either accelerating hard or the battery is running too low for the power management system. And at the speeds at which it runs in all-electric, the stopping distance is very short. And it's not like they're dead quiet - they rattle, have tire noise, etc, just like any car.

Playing the "blind card" is clever propaganda by the people putting this red herring out. It takes people's natural sympathies (and general left attitudes about accomodating people with physical challenges), so that this becomes an emotional and not a rational discussion.

Let's start with some real-world accident and fatality data between "silent" vehicles that preceded hybrids and blind pedestrians, then perhaps we can see what we're talking about. My guess is that this is a non-issue, otherwise we would have heard quite a bit about it with respect to electric buses (especially since blind people obviously use transit quite a bit).

The law in most places gives a pedestrian the right of way, even at intersections without a stoplight or stop sign. So, you'd have to be talking about a situation where the hybrid driver (who is probably more conscientious than the average driver) is not paying attention and a blind person darts out into traffic. Could this happen? 5,000 people (and I'm sure very few of them are blind) get hit and killed by cars in the US every year, so obviously accidents can happen.

Should we push this logic? Kids have to walk, right? So, should all vehicles be made so low that kids can see over them so they can more safely cross streets?

At some point common sense has to dictate that we can't make the world completely safe. And I certainly don't think upping the level of noise around us is going to help.

Uh, most modern car engines are practically silent while idling, so we've had this "problem" for quite some time. If a car coasts up to a light or lets off on the gas for some other reason (i.e. backing out) there's a good chance what little engine sound there is will be masked by the noise from the tires.

This is just FUD, same stuff that came out when EVs were starting to get a little press in the 90's.

Here's an idea - build the city so you -don't- need a car. Make it pedestrian friendly and walkable. Make it so people want to get out of their cars.

It is not perfect, but downtown St. Paul/Minneapolis , MN (USA) is great. With the world's largest public-owned covered skyway system, you can go grocery shopping, go to a city park, do your banking, go back to your apartment, etc all without encountering a car. It is also great for getting exercise while staying free of the elements.

I know this is probably not your point but deafblind people use guide dogs too (often they have them dual trained for hearing dog work as well). Those deafblind people who also use wheelchairs do have dog guides that guide them -- granted there are not many and they use electric wheelchairs. It truly is a very difficult life if you are deafblind in terms of crossing streets/communication access and some deafblind people with even the slightest/blurriest vision play russian roulette, after tiring of waiting at a street corner for half an hour/hours and no one answering their card requesting help in crossing the street. BUT many deafblind people use the skyways in downtown St. Paul safely. I am one of those deafblind people who have had the priveledge to use this labyrinth with my dog guide. I have yet to encounter a hybrid so I can't comment on that.

I know it is probably in jest that someone mentioned vibrating the ground, but it is ideas like that which spark the imagination of engineers/designers. I don't suggest however one accomplish this with turning up ones stereo -- I have come into contact with cars that I literally could tell from 5 feet away were there just from the vibes of the stereo, especially the pulsating base. Good for me but easily deafening to the person/s in the car (if they are not already stone deaf, that is).

Impressive to see so many comments here!

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I'm all for a noiseless car - there are some of us who live near highways, and look forward to the day when we only hear the whisper of tires hitting the pavement.

Relying on your eyes is nice in theory, but you can't fight evolution. We evolved hearing (in part) to warn us of dangers that aren't in our field of vision or let off no scent.

monster truck hybrids with big knobby tires blasting iron maiden. jack that baby up high enough so she can drive clear over pedestrians.

Two points:
Go stand on a street corner and actually listen to cars going by. You will notice that, unless the car is accelerating hard, the engine is not the loudest thing, the tires are.

As a bike commuter, i notice that the less noise i make, the less trouble i have with pedestrians. Bells tend to make people slow down, turn around or step into your path. I used to warn people by saying "On your left/right!" until someone stepped in front of me after i warned them. :(

Can I just point out that simple crossing points and bicycle lanes would solve most of the problems you are mentioning here. In the UK at fixed crossing points there are pavings slabs with raised bumps which can be felt through your shoes to signal to those who are visually impaired that they are at a crossing. Once the crossing button has been pressed and it is safe to cross an audible signal is given so that all pedestrians can cross in safety. Secondly by having designated cycle lanes there would be less risk of cyclist and hybrid drivers becoming entangled.

Ultimately the reduction of noise in these vehicles is a good thing, as is the environmental benefits. Being visually impaired is going to be problem crossing the road whether you can hear the car or not. The solution is in better design of crossing locations and education of city planners.

Calling people idiots, and suggesting that they deserve to get hit by cars for evolutionary reasons either because they are blind/visually impaired or simply distracted for moment is really uncool and not nice.

Pedestrians should - like every mother teaches - look both ways before walking into a street. Likewise, hybrid drivers simply need to excercise additional situational awareness, like motorcycle riders have had to do. This really is a non issue; most vehicles are barely audible as they approach at speed because they're moving at the leading edge of their sound field. Why do you think so many animals end up as road kill? And from a pragmatic standpoint, using hybrids to cull the least attentive swimmers in the gene pool has a certain poetry to it.

I've had to be careful on occassion with my hybrid when it's been clear to me that others do not hear it.

However, as an ex-employee of Toyota and somebody fairly knowledgeable about auto manufacturing, I'm quite confident that this could be fixed easily, quickly and at a low cost.

In short, it is a minor issue requiring a minor adjustment and not a valid reason to dismiss hybrid technology. That said, it could probably use a little more attention, if anything, to ensure the adjustments are made.

Joseph, my apology on confusing "electric bus" with "hybrid bus". I was recently reading about hybrid busses so I had hybrid on the brain. However, my original assertion remains true for either type of bus. Large vehicles with 6 to 10 large-diameter tires and which have high wind resistance will produce lots of noise at all speeds. More than enough for a blind person to hear it. Low air resistance and low rolling resistance (tires) for EV's and hybrids don't have that built-in noise. Your point about them making 75 db of noise at 35 mph proves my point - you won't need the safety noise above a certain speed, only at low speeds.

Bicyclists have much more maneuverability and higher stopping power than a car. They are also closer to their environment so can see potential issues better than a driver in a car. There are 99% fewer bicycles on the road, just like there are 99% fewer EV/hybrid cars right now. The difference is there is a good chance those "alternative" cars will be the "standard" car within the next decade. There are several advances in battery technology due out in the next year or two that may even make hybrids a thing of the past (think 3 minute charging times and normal 300+ mile ranges for a car). Very quickly all that silence becomes one insurmountable wall for a blind ped trying to cross the street in 2016 with few combustion-based vehicles left on the road. Noise is also a valuable queue for normally sighted/hearing peds who do sometimes get saved by hearing that vehicle they didn't see at first.

Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting we make hybrids as loud as normal cars, just loud enough to build in some safety. Once hybrids are the norm, cities and highways will be much quieter even with safety noise. If all vehicles were silent cities and highways would still have noise from construction, large loads jumping around on trucks hitting potholes, sirens, etc. There is no way to cram a million people into a city or a thousand cars on a highway and have silence, so you might as well make some of that noise productive.

Don't add noise it will make bicyclist safer.
I am shocked at how well blind people get around and in a city where I see many blind people walking around, I used to live 1 block from the blind library in philadelphia, I never once have come even close to hitting a blind person. My experiance has been that blind people think. They don't cross against the light, they don't walk between cars, and they don't make sudden directions changes. If all peds would behave accordingly we wouldn't have to worry about this. People don't look when they cross and I have almost hit many and have hit 4 in my 6 years of bicycle commuting.
If we keep things quite then everyone has to pay attention and blind people will still keep their part of the contract by crossing the street with the light at an intersection. And the rest of the idiots who don't follow the rules will get hit by a Prius and won't hurt that beautiful car as much as they will my beautiful bike. I don't want bad peds killed, I just want people to pay attention.
this also means hybrid owners need to pay attention when turning on the light and running lights/stopsigns.

I see hybrids drive by all of the time. I find that I notice them more than other cars because while the sound level is a little bit lower, it sounds so DIFFERENT from a IC car that I find myself looking up to find out what that sound is.

Perhaps this is the real problem: that electric car engines don't sound like cars. The volume is well-above the level of conversation so it's plenty loud enough, but we don't register that high, steady whir as car so we ignore it.

I would hate to see sound ADDED to hybrids. Auto noise has gotten pretty bad in some places. There are parks I won't go to anymore because of the traffic noise that surrounds it. The quiet whir of a hybrid is a welcome respite. Af far as safety goes, the sound of hybrids will take time to register in our minds as something to pay attention to. In the mean time, just make people aware of it.

I bicycle, a lot. Unless it's a car with a diesel engine or without a muffler, I'd say it's the tire noise that I hear first from an overtaking car.

i put about 2,000 Km on my electric scooter before the cops dragged it from under me (i didn't exactly have permission to ride it on streets) but i can assure you that it is very frustrating and annoying to have to deal with this but it is an issue.

i never had blind people jump infront of my ride (which sounded almost silent, except for a little blender like buzzing) but i did have loads of people crossing a corner and not hearing me and chatting and strolling slow enough to drive me nuts! and people jumping in front of me while inertia makes is so i have to skid away so as not to hurt anyone (she did 65KmH a SWAP from taiwan...)

it's not just hybrids, its full on electrics as well that have this problem. and there is a need to do soemthing about it.. you may fell that its evolution, stupid, but good luck explaining that flippant attytude to the cops after you run someone over. it sucks for both the driver and the walkers.... and we have to learn what to do until we get those roadless cities

I just wanted to add my two cents here, even though there're hundreds of cents here already...

It is the driver's (of any type of vehicle) responsibility to avoid hitting things (living things especially) while operating the vehicle. Certainly it is great when these things do their best to avoid being hit, but ultimately, as a driver, you can't expect that to happen all the time, so it's up to you to drive safely.

Relying on making lots of noise to scare things away is unrealistic as a safety measure, since lots of things aren't always scared away by loud noises (deaf people, small children running after balls, concrete construction pylons, deer in headlights, etc.)

So, you drive slowly and attentively enough to stop if there is suddenly something in front of you. In a busy urban street setting, that would be under 25 mph, probably more like 15 mph. On an open highway with really good sightlines that might be around 65 mph or higher.

Driving safely enough to avoid a crash is a win-win situation for everyone. You avoid crashing, the roads are less stressful for you and others, there is less roadkill (human and otherwise), and concrete pylons get to live long and happy lives content in the knowledge that they are helping people avoid falling into the center of the earth!

Peolpe need to adjust to a new way of living and if cars are less noisy that is as benefit and folks need to adapt. I cannot wait for the day when 18 wheelers make little to no noise.

Like many people in my small town, I own a Prius. I call it my "stealth" car and I love it. We were given five senses for a reason. Pedestrians need to be alert to bicyclists (which roll along relatively silently), other pedestrians, and yes, stealth cars. Like a bicycle, while there may be no noise from the motor, my car actually makes a noise as the tires pass over the pavement. It's subtle, but if you listen, you can hear it. As someone who learned to look both ways when I was little, I don't see the problem. In fact, it's nice not to hear the vehicles coming, what with all the traffic noise today. Stand on any busy street corner at lunchtime and you see what I mean. Not only do Prius and other hybrids lower the air pollution level, they lower the noise pollution. As for the pedestrians, pay attention like you're supposed to, and be thankful that hybrids don't make more noise than they should.

Ever since this discussion here, I've been paying more attention to the noise that cars make.

It is very rare that what I heard most from a moving car was the engine. The tires definitely make the most noise.

But with a car that goes from stationary to moving, I can understand how some people rely on engine noise to know if the car is on and if it is about to move. With a regular car, if you don't hear an engine noise when it's parked, it's probably not about to move even if someone's inside.

Simple Solution. Create a watch for the blind that uses sound to indicate the approach of an electric car. Then you can have electric cars, and you remove the hazard for the blind.

I have a deaf friend. She can't hear anything that comes her way. Sometimes cars are too little for her to see over parked cars, especially large SUVs. I think that this creates a problem for deaf people because they can't hear the vehicle no matter how loud it is and I think that this makes small cars particularly unsafe. I think that small cars should be banned because they are hard to see in parking lots and could possibly pose a threat to people who can't hear. You could require cars that are smaller than SUVs to have large fins that are brightly colored so that vehicles could more easily be seen, or require that they all have really bright flashing lights on top that rotate so that people can see them especially the deaf since they can't hear any car. In fact they really can't hear any car coming, so all cars should be equipped with large rotating flashing lights that would illuminate at least 100 yards in front of them in bright red so that deaf people who can't hear them can see the light and know that there is a vehicle coming.

You know that sometimes the noise of a city is such that you can't really hear the sound of a normal automobile. Jackhammers, louder trucks, horns, people playing music all are typically louder than a normal vehicle’s sound. In essence this makes us all unable to hear cars that are typically quieter than the snapping of pebbles under their wheels when driving slow. This is unacceptable. How can a blind person be expected to hear a car through all this loud noise. I propose that all cars have really loud sirens so that they can be heard over the ambient noise of the street. There have been all sorts of studies on sirens, now even having a vibrating noise added to them to make sure that people hear these vehicles coming. We should have all cars that might some day drive by a jackhammer while a blind person is trying to walk across the street in front of them be equipped with these sirens. Come on, now we are talking safety here.

I fully expect, in the name of safety that all cars in the future should have loud sirens and big rotating flashing lights that illuminate 100 yards in front in bright red so that no one will ever get run over by them ever again.

One thing I don't understand is why ambulances run over people and get into accidents where people are killed every year. How anyone ever gets hit by a bus, but thousands of people do every year. How it is possible to get hit by a roaring, smoke belching, gigantic truck, but people do by the thousands every year.

Maybe we can't prevent all accidents from vehicles no matter how loud and visible they are. As hybrids become more popular I imagine that more and more people will be hit and injured by them. It won’t be any different then those people who have been hit by ambulances, large trucks and busses. The cause will most likely be inattentive driving and in attentive pedestrian rather than the quietness of the vehicle. Some 48% of all incidences where people have been hit by cars were when people backed-up over someone. None of those incidents were from hybrids so far. It seems to me that if we are trying to solve a problem in the real world that we should first try to solve the problems that are most likely to happen because they happen all the time, rather than trying to solve problems of something that hasn't happened yet or might possibly happen. If people are getting run over by backing up noisy internal combustion engine cars in the 10 of thousands, then we should all be focused on saving tens of thousands of lives lost every year from that rather than trying to solve a problem that doesn’t have on recorded incident of seriously injury. Solve the real problem don't make one up and then insist that we solve it.

That hybrids are too quiet is a Red Haring and I imagine MGR is a paid opinion maker by those apposed to improved gas mileage or quieter vehicles.

Noise polution transmitted from tire vibration is very annoying and loud near busy streets. Sound absorption for vehicles and/or roads could make our urban life less stressful.

Electric vehicles are serene as far as motors go. Hopefully quiet road surface technology is being engineered for our future as well.